Life In 19x19 :: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League

Krama wrote:

It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro

It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds.

Some Westerners have made it to higher levels. Examples: Hans Pietsch, Catalin Taranu, who made it to mid-dan pros; and Michael Redmond who made it to 9p. Redmond started his pro studies in Japan at age 13, which is a little old but similar to many. Redmond has won games with top Japanese pros, though he has never won a top title.

At a US Go Congress years ago the late Nakayama Noriyuki, a well known Japanese pro in the West, gave a lecture on how to become a really strong player. A condensed version of his answer is : 1) start young, 2) study good books, and 3) have a good teacher. At the time of this lecture we in the West lacked all three of the conditions. Despite the decades since then we still have few people starting really young, we lack really good books, and there are not many teachers capable of training pro students. In China there is an abundance of all three conditions, same for Japan and Korea. Is it surprising that the West doesn't produce many players at pro level?

As an example, compare the sport of football in Europe (soccer in the USA). Kids start playing as soon as they can run. It is played competitively throughout the school and university years. There are many coaches everywhere who can help young players develop. Unfortunately for the West, there has to be much more societal support for go. I think it is indicative that in the USA the youth go scene seems to be dominated by children of Oriental ethnic background, mostly Chinese or Korean. The families of these young people already have an appreciation of the value of the game.

Author:	oren [ Fri May 15, 2015 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Who else is in their team?

Author:	honte [ Fri May 15, 2015 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
They are both board 4 in two different teams, the teammates are 3 other Chinese pros. Round 1, their teams paired up, Pavol beat Ali by 1.5 Round 2, Ali beat a 1p Chinese woman pro who was the only woman played in men's team, Pavol lost to a Chinese 3p. Round 3, both of them lost. Round 4 is ongoing, 7 rounds total.

Author:	oren [ Fri May 15, 2015 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Thanks. I've been following a bit of league C, since the Japanese team is also there. It's even more interesting now with the Europeans as well.

Author:	Elom [ Sat May 16, 2015 2:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Do you know where you could find the pairings/results sheet?

Author:	Krama [ Sat May 16, 2015 3:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds.

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Author:	Elom [ Sat May 16, 2015 4:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Krama wrote: It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds. Many low level chinese pros spend more time studying in some days than some in the west spend awake on sundays! (not to be somehow critical of your statement though ) But, the situation is a bit too complicated to say anything for sure, it mostly depends on attitude, I guess? edit: I realise how terrible this post sounds. What is meant is that all of the pros work extremely hard to become some "low-level" pro, I didn't want that perspective to be lost.

Author:	Cassandra [ Sat May 16, 2015 4:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Krama wrote: It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds. Did you expect anything else ? Chinese (as all the other East-Asian) professionals are the result of a very intense long-term education, and training, process that started when these (later) professionals were yound kids. Additionally, there is the level-rising effect of massive competition. Finally, the top-geniouses amoung all the other geniouses make it. Not to mention the field of social recognition that will lay significant foundations overall. + + + + + + + + + In the Western world, e.g. Europe, these very few top-players are a one-hit-wonder each. Some kind of genious, amoung all the other Go players. From the fact that there are these European professionals recently, I cannot recognize any effect on -- the implementation of orderly, planned processes for creating (and not just re-naming) strongest players, or -- rise in social recognition. I wonder much as anyone came up with the idea, just naming European's strongest -- lets say -- dozen players "European Professional" (including some kind of special, but individual, training for these few only) could have a decisive effect on rising the level of strength of the entire Go community. You will not manage to create a higher-level "top" without widening the base.

Author:	Elom [ Sat May 16, 2015 6:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Most of the 1st rank world-title holding professionals-- and even most of the second rank pros-- Learned to play at about the same age they learned to read. Rui Naiwei 9p is an exception (I'm not talking about female tournaments), but even if you had the "inborn talent", or, for the sake of sounding scientific, "inborn genetic predisposition for Baduk", enough to become a world class player, if you learn the game at twelve even a Go "genius" will struggle to make it to professional level, despite having had the potential to be a leading player. In other words, "talent", is, "wasted", so to speak. Well, it seems to make sense at least .

Author:	gowan [ Sat May 16, 2015 9:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Krama wrote: It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds. Some Westerners have made it to higher levels. Examples: Hans Pietsch, Catalin Taranu, who made it to mid-dan pros; and Michael Redmond who made it to 9p. Redmond started his pro studies in Japan at age 13, which is a little old but similar to many. Redmond has won games with top Japanese pros, though he has never won a top title. At a US Go Congress years ago the late Nakayama Noriyuki, a well known Japanese pro in the West, gave a lecture on how to become a really strong player. A condensed version of his answer is : 1) start young, 2) study good books, and 3) have a good teacher. At the time of this lecture we in the West lacked all three of the conditions. Despite the decades since then we still have few people starting really young, we lack really good books, and there are not many teachers capable of training pro students. In China there is an abundance of all three conditions, same for Japan and Korea. Is it surprising that the West doesn't produce many players at pro level? As an example, compare the sport of football in Europe (soccer in the USA). Kids start playing as soon as they can run. It is played competitively throughout the school and university years. There are many coaches everywhere who can help young players develop. Unfortunately for the West, there has to be much more societal support for go. I think it is indicative that in the USA the youth go scene seems to be dominated by children of Oriental ethnic background, mostly Chinese or Korean. The families of these young people already have an appreciation of the value of the game.

Author:	Krama [ Sun May 17, 2015 5:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
It is not that I am surprised by it, but still it is sad to see that we are so much behind them. Maybe if we are lucky we can get a person with savant syndrome who just happens to understand the game of stones on a whole new level

Author:	gowan [ Sun May 17, 2015 9:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
gowan wrote: Krama wrote: It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds. Some Westerners have made it to higher levels. Examples: Hans Pietsch, Catalin Taranu, who made it to mid-dan pros; and Michael Redmond who made it to 9p. Redmond started his pro studies in Japan at age 13, which is a little old but similar to many. Redmond has won games with top Japanese pros, though he has never won a top title. At a US Go Congress years ago the late Nakayama Noriyuki, a well known Japanese pro in the West, gave a lecture on how to become a really strong player. A condensed version of his answer is : 1) start young, 2) study good books, and 3) have a good teacher. At the time of this lecture we in the West lacked all three of the conditions. Despite the decades since then we still have few people starting really young, we lack really good books, and there are not many teachers capable of training pro students. In China there is an abundance of all three conditions, same for Japan and Korea. Is it surprising that the West doesn't produce many players at pro level? As an example, compare the sport of football in Europe (soccer in the USA). Kids start playing as soon as they can run. It is played competitively throughout the school and university years. There are many coaches everywhere who can help young players develop. Unfortunately for the West, there has to be much more societal support for go. I think it is indicative that in the USA the youth go scene seems to be dominated by children of Oriental ethnic background, mostly Chinese or Korean. The families of these young people already have an appreciation of the value of the game. P.S. I don't recall whether Mr. Nakayama mentioned the necessity of strong enough people to play with but that is important, too. Cassandra mentioned needing a large base to build a tall pyramid, which agrees with having enough players as one works up to the top. Except for the recent Western certified pros (European and USA), all of the Western-origin pros had to get training in the Orient (and were certified by Oriental go associations). The pyramid is growing, slowly. There is a big enough base in the West to produce players at roughly Oriental 1p strength, the newly created "Western" pros. There have been pro-strength players in European tournaments for a while (Fan, Guo, Taranu, Dinerchtein) and they are not head and shoulders above the pack now. This is an indication that the European base is big enough to get the top to the 1p level. The highest possible level, represented by the very top Oriental players, is at most three stones above the top of the European pyramid. Not so far away.

Author:	breakfast [ Sat May 30, 2015 8:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Pavol and Ali play at Chinese League
Can you please share some sgf?

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