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Extension problems http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14160 |
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Author: | John Fairbairn [ Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Extension problems |
One of the most popular books I have done, at least in terms of sales, was The Go Consultants. This is a commentary on a famous "Old versus New" pair-go game between Suzuki Tamejiro/Segoe Kensaku and Go Seigen/Kitani Minrou in 1934-35. The commentary was by the players themselves, designed to show how they were thinking. Readers seem to like the novelty of this. But this style of commentary was actually the norm in those days. Almost every game in Kido in the 1920s and 1930s featured detailed comments by both players. This was also the period of the life cycle of New Fuseki - ideas that were incredibly similar to those of modern AI. It was also an era when time limits of 8 to 18 hours each offered scope for deep and accurate thought. The insights offered are extreme distillations, of course. But that makes themt malt whiskies rather than the tepid lagers of modern commentaries. The difference seems most noticeable to me in the fuseki - natural enough, perhaps, given the innovation in the air. I thought it might be of interest to present fuseki problems from these games where an extension was possible. Your task is not so much to guess the extension played (quite often there are valid alternatives) but to get clear in your mind the factors that need to be considered in making extensions. Then see what the pros offer as a distillation of their in-game thoughts. Over time, this series of problems (if popular enough) might lead to kyus especially developing a rather more refined policy network. I also hope to shed some light on what lies behind some of the words we use. This no-komi game featured Kato Minaichi versus Takenaka Kotaro in 1936. Kato had just played the triangled stone but confessed himself unsure whether to play there or A. Now, though, Black will naturally play on the upper side. Where and WHY? White's reply to the hidden move chosen above also involved an interesting extension, with reasoning that I find very rare in amateur circles: |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
FWIW, for Black I prefer C, precisely because of its whole board effects. That said, I have had success with plays like the one in the game, an idea that I picked up from Segoe's Sakusen Jiten. ![]() As for White's extension in the second diagram, it is fairly normal from the large knight's enclosure. If White extends one more space, Black's jump becomes a dual purpose play, enlarging the Black framework while aiming at White's thinness. |
Author: | BlindGroup [ Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
John Fairbairn wrote: I thought it might be of interest to present fuseki problems from these games where an extension was possible. Your task is not so much to guess the extension played (quite often there are valid alternatives) but to get clear in your mind the factors that need to be considered in making extensions. Great idea! Thank you for doing this. John Fairbairn wrote: I confess that I am not entirely sure why he seems to be implying that an ikken-tobi game is not to his taste, but there is, I think, an important clue in the word "wide." Could someone explain what an ikken-tobi game is? I under stand the term as the one-space jump, but don't know what it means in terms of a type of game. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
Funnily enough I played a restrained extension like the second one here 2 days ago at the British Open against Andrew Kay (though it was in middlegame and the side group much thicker so even more logical), but as I was overcome with fighting spirit and stupidity in overtime and chose to fight a ko rather than connect a dragon of about 30 stones in the endgame the subtleties of such extensions were rendered rather moot! |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:20 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
Here is the next example (these positions are cropping up as I'm transcribing 1930s games). This one is between top players Kubomatsu Katsukiyo and Miyasaka Shinji. Miyasaka is the chap expected - at least by himself - to succeed Shusai as Honinbo. Obviously Black to play somewhere on the lower side. But where and what factors come into it? |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
Kubomatsu's (Black's) play is kind of obvious, especially with no komi. But I wonder: With 7-ish komi, would Master play at B? ![]() |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
John Fairbairn wrote: Final position. I think there is a typo somewhere. Can't White live (or Black kill) on the right side? |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
Bill: You are right - white stone missing at S14. Today's example is rather simple but a profound truth lies behind it. Iwamoto to play on the upper side, against Maeda Nobuaki. In passing, how does White capture the three black stones in the lower right? |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
Didin't Karigane play that jump against Go Seigen? |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
Quote: Didin't Karigane play that jump against Go Seigen? Yes, but not when he had a choice between that an extension (Game 1 of their match I assume you mean). |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
John Fairbairn wrote: Quote: Didin't Karigane play that jump against Go Seigen? Yes, but not when he had a choice between that an extension (Game 1 of their match I assume you mean). Right. I looked it up after getting up just now. He had the option of extending on the other side. ![]() |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
So that others know what we are talking about, here is the position: In fact Go said Karigane's triangled move was dubious. He assumed Karigane played it because it married well with the X stone and/or because he was worried about White playing there as an erasure. He shot down the first reason by arguing that the space was in fact too wide, and the second by claiming that Black would answer the cap at A, and that was the ideal relationship with the X stone. But he didn't say quite that the right alternative was extension on the right side. Rather he suggested Black should first exchange B for C before plonking down at D. This may be a stylistic thing. It seems equally valid to me to play D first and then aim for B. The rights and wrongs of this order-of-play issue is something that I don't thin I've ever seen discussed in fuseki books. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
uberdude: The flow of the game was that Black let White attack his left corner group in a version of the one-weak-group strategy. It lived easily enough in a minor skirmish in this quadrant alone (i.e. no collateral damage), and Black also managed to live in the upper left. That left White no option but to try kamikaze tactics on the side, but he never got beyond move 125. There was np specific commentary by Iwamoto on this skirmish, but Maeda thought he ought to have deferred attacking there to play on the right side. He probably did not play there because he had already become dissatisfied with his cap on the shimari (maybe because Black answered - though with reservations - at O16) and presumably didn't want to throw good money after bad. He decided he ought to have invaded at L16 instead of the cap, though it has to be said that Iwamoto gave that rather a gruff brush-off. In a sense this isn't a fuseki problem but rather a start-of-the-middle game problem, so the dynamics have changed a bit. |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Extension problems |
A further aspect today - extensions are often not just extensions but may double up as checking extensions (tsume) or, as here, extensions-cum-pincers. That brings in a dose of tactics, because of the joseki implications. White (Fukuda Masayoshi) has just played at the triangled point. He explained that he has played this sort of move for a long time (so it's obviously stylistic) but he was not sure whether it was better instead to play at A or B, let Black make the shimari at the triangled point, and then shimari himself at C. There is nothing magical about choosing the next move for Black, but see if you can replicate some of the thought process of Mukai Kazuo. |
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