What do you think about this move?

Stevenson · #1

What do you think about white move 18? Was it a good invasion? I'm not sure the result is good for white. I haven't seen this move before, so I wonder if it is useful to try it in my games.
The problem is there might be too many outcomes after this move.

The game was played on 2011-10-18, where Lee Changho 9p defeated amateur Cho Insun, who was granted 1p later on.

Edit: Lee Changho 9p won the game

Magicwand · #2

it appears to be wrong invasion.
because attaching looks akward i dont like it..
also,very import, it appears to be wrong timing.

i am not strong enough to tell you the best point of invasion but i am pretty sure your move is not good.

gogameguru · #3

There's a certain logic to attaching since white wants to make shape quickly in this area. I thought it was a creative sequence of moves. No matter where white plays, black's going to be able to attack and get a better result locally, simply because black has so many stones in that part of the board. Black did take territory, of course, but it wasn't a huge amount.

Anyway, white should do something about black's lower right framework, either by invading near the lower right corner or around L3. And white didn't lose this game, he won it.

By the way Stevenson, what happened to your website?

Stevenson · #4

The regular invasion would be Q5 for white. Since black stone J4 is relatively far, it won't be difficult for white to make a living group or sabaki.

That's why recently pros started to play N4 extension for black so that why could not easily settle his group.

2 Magicwand
I think it's the best timing since if white omit this invasion black would make shimari and make a giant framework. And it's not my move, Lee Changho played it.

2 gameguru
oh my bad, I thought black won it. I should edit it.
It's nice to see that Lee Changho tries new ideas/moves in his games. This is the spirit that young pros should learn.

regarding the site. it was too much time-consuming. The blogspot interface is not very handy. Also it's hard to post news since most of the information available is in chinese/korean.

Uberdude · #5

I think it's an interesting move and shows how there is so much variety in Go. I think one key idea is if black hanes in the corner (which is locally best for territory) white will get to play first on the important lower side: the r9 stone makes the right less interesting (maybe black pincers instead of 5, but then white hanes to the right of 5 and has the ladder so can double hane). By attaching you make black strong, but seeing as it's the Chinese opening the thinking must be black is quite strong anyway so by attaching you settle the shapes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Kikashi before L3. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . 4 O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 8 . . . 2 X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Incidentally, I recently had this surprising attachment played against me on OGS and similarly I didn't want the corner as the lower side was focus. It lead to big fighting. http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=312800 . Much more interesting than the boring Chinese invasion joseki

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gogameguru · #6

Interesting. I understand you were just coming up with a 'normal' sequence as an example (I do that too). I'm just wondering how to you feel about black 7 at 8 instead (e.g. below)?

To me, playing another move on the right side feels just a little slack (but normal). I would play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm7 Anticipate influence. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . 5 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 3 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 . a . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White gets some influence this way, but still has to settle a group in the long run. Black 7 is now well placed because black anticipated this result and didn't extend closer. I prefer black because he has a solid position, with both hands free to fight later. If white extends to 'a', black gets sente.

What do other people think?

Bill Spight · #7

Gee, I thought that the standard invasion was O-03.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 2 . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Enclosure $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 3 . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Outside hane $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . 2 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The second result is not as good as Uberdude's, but I would have played the outside hane as Black.

Uberdude · #8

gogameguru wrote:

White gets some influence this way, but still has to settle a group in the long run. Black 7 is now well placed because black anticipated this result and didn't extend closer. I prefer black because he has a solid position, with both hands free to fight later. If white extends to 'a', black gets sente.

What do other people think?

Hard for me to judge this. I don't think white can afford to spend another move and would come back to p17. Black has been pressed low on the right and his lower side group is not so big, so white could be happy to drive a wedge into black's framework in sente. But as you say white's group is not yet settled so could be a headache in the future. If white doesn't like this he can of course not play my :w6:

at that time and extend first. If black blocks and jumps as below then white retains sente and can come back to that point later. Maybe black doesn't play :b9:

and plays at :w10:

instead, but then white gets to play first against black's lower side group, e.g. at a. Black also has a big weakness at b but then white's group to the right is also weak: so fighting is sure to develop.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Extend first $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 9 a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 5 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , 8 . . . 4 O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . b . 7 6 . . . 2 X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But of course black might not answer :w6:

but instead play at the key point of p5. Then white gets to slide and it's a different game. Here I think it's ok for white, though sometimes this is a good way for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Resistance $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . 4 O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 6 . . . 2 X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

gogameguru · #9

Yes, I'd expect the second option. I figured this was why you had white play P5 in the first place and it seemed to be the best move for white.

It doesn't seem good for white to start playing for a trade. It shows fighting spirit, but I think the result favours black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Too good for black? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O d . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a B , . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . c b . X . 5 . . 1 . 4 . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's not just because black paralyses white's three stones with 4, but because black's centre framework is still growing at the same time. If white plays 5 at 'a', black will get an opportunity to attach at 'b' (after cutting at 5) and it looks easy for black. And if white just plays 5 as in the diagram, black still has good moves at 'c' and 'd'. After 5, the marked black stone has effectively turned into a forcing move and black's stones are light.

There's another way to play, but it doesn't improve things much.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Make shape instead? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . 4 O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 6 b a . 2 X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . d . c . . 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd read that white would make shape with 8 instead to avoid shortage of liberties. Now if black plays 'a' white can play 'b' and if black plays 'b' white can play 'c' and possibly sacrifice (but in good form). Black could also play 'd', but it seems like it would be better to enclose white from above and make the framework even bigger.

This still isn't that great for white though. I think white has to be satisfied with the original move at P5.

What do you think about this move?

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