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 Post subject: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #1 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:25 am 
Oza

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Gan Siyang is a 22-year-old Chinese pro from Hubei. He hasn't set the tournament go world alight yet, taking since 2001 to progress from 1-dan to 4-dan. But he has a devoted following. This is because of his consistent style of extreme centre-oriented plays (starting at the 8-8 point, or the 9-10, and so on. He is equally cosmic when taking White.

In the nature of things, he rarely meets a top player. But this past week (May 2011) has seen the annual jamboree for Division B of the China Weiqi league in Chengdu. Unlike the weekly Division A, this takes place as a week-long team tournament, and for that reason it attracts several foreign pros who can fit this into their schedule more easily than the constant travel required for Division A (though a few do take it on there).

This year Yi Ch'ang-ho turned up again, and in Round 6 he was paired with young Gan, who didn't flinch from taking a space-walk even against one of the greatest players ever. The enjoyable game is given below.

[sgf-full](;SZ[19]FF[3]
PW[Gan Siyang]
WR[4d]
PB[Yi Ch'ang-ho]
BR[9d]
EV[2011 China Weiqi League, Division B]
RO[Round 6]
DT[2011-05-13]
PC[Chengdu]
KM[3.75]
RU[Chinese]
RE[B+0.75]
US[GoGoD95]
;B[pd];W[dn];B[pp];W[fd];B[ce];W[dd];B[cd];W[cc];B[bc];W[bb];B[ep];W[dp]
;B[dq];W[cq];B[er];W[cr];B[do];W[cp];B[en];W[co];B[eo];W[dm];B[em];W[dl]
;B[jp];W[qn];B[np];W[pj];B[qh];W[on];B[qo];W[rn];B[mn];W[lq];B[jq];W[qq]
;B[pq];W[qp];B[qr];W[po];B[oo];W[pn];B[rp];W[rq];B[rr];W[ro];B[nn];W[nc]
;B[oc];W[nd];B[qf];W[de];B[jd];W[lc];B[ke];W[ng];B[me];W[lf];B[le];W[ne]
;B[mf];W[pe];B[qe];W[qc];B[qd];W[ob];B[pb];W[pc];B[qb];W[od];B[rc];W[jb]
;B[ic];W[cf];B[fk];W[lh];B[nf];W[of];B[og];W[nh];B[ib];W[jc];B[he];W[mb]
;B[oh];W[ni];B[jg];W[if];B[gd];W[fe];B[gg];W[lm];B[lk];W[ji];B[hh];W[ln]
;B[ml];W[mo];B[lo];W[or];B[pr];W[ko];B[lp];W[kp];B[mp];W[kq];B[jr];W[kk]
;B[kl];W[ll];B[jk];W[mk];B[kj];W[mm];B[nm];W[nl];B[kn];W[km];B[jn];W[jm]
;B[im];W[om];B[no];W[il];B[jl];W[ml];B[in];W[ik];B[jj];W[ij];B[ki];W[kh]
;B[ii];W[jh];B[hj];W[ig];B[kb];W[kc];B[gf];W[gc];B[ih];W[je];B[ie];W[jf]
;B[kd];W[ge];B[kf];W[kg];B[li];W[ch];B[ja];W[hd];B[id];W[lb];B[ka];W[md]
;B[oc];W[pc];B[qj];W[qk];B[di];W[ek];B[fj];W[dr];B[eq];W[ci];B[rk];W[mi]
;B[hf];W[rj];B[qi];W[rl];B[dj];W[cj];B[pk];W[sk];B[oj];W[ok];B[cb];W[dc]
;B[pi];W[pl];B[ab];W[ba];B[ca];W[bd];B[aa];W[be];B[fa];W[fb];B[ga];W[ea]
;B[ia];W[gb];B[ha];W[eb];B[sr];W[el];B[fl];W[hl];B[hm];W[sg];B[rg];W[fh]
;B[fi];W[nj];B[gl];W[eh];B[dh];W[dg];B[sp];W[si];B[sf];W[lg];B[mg];W[mh]
;B[hk];W[mj];B[sq];W[qo];B[pf];W[oe];B[ff];W[ef];B[es];W[gh];B[hg];W[jg]
;B[gi];W[pa];B[dk];W[ck];B[ds];W[cs];B[la];W[ma];B[qa];W[oa];B[so];W[oi]
;B[ri];W[pj];B[sh];W[sj];B[sn];W[sm];B[lj];W[hc];B[ei];W[eg];B[ej];W[oc]
;B[qc];W[ld];B[fg];W[hb]
)[/sgf-full]


Here is an idea for western players who want to become pro. The teams in the Weiqi League have to find sponsors, usually local ones. The sponsors get good TV and web coverage. If you know of a western company that wants to sell in China - tehre are many - and are a strong enough player not to embarrass anyone, you might consider asking the company if it would consider being a (part) sponsor for a local team in return for letting you play some games there. It's a relatively cheap way to get good area publicity for the company. I'd expect a team with the novelty of a western "pro" to get even more publicity.

I did pass this idea onto a British diplomat in Chongqing some time ago, though without the western player angle. He made contact with the Chinese side and concluded it was a workable idea that would be looked on with favour in China. It didn't pan out because the British companies he approached wanted myopically (he felt) to have plush offices in Beijing instead. Maybe they were right, but the idea is still up for grabs. Sometimes it pays to be way out, like Gan Siyang.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 3 people: ez4u, nagano, snorri
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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #2 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:43 am 
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3.75 komi?

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #3 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:45 am 
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7.5, to most of us - 1 point to the Chinese is 2 points to the Japanese. I think it has to do with the way they count the score, but I'm not sure and will leave someone much more knowledgeable than me to explain :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #4 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:12 pm 
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I'm also confused by the weird komi in the game. Why is it half of what is normal under Chinese rules?

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #5 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:45 pm 
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3.75 is the usual komi in China. It is only for us westerners, used to the Japanese way of counting, that this is usually expressed as 7.5 points.

The reason is in the way the Chinese count. Since Chinese scoring uses area (own stones + surrounded empty spaces), rather than territory (surrounded empty spaces + prisoners), every point on the board belongs to someone (except shared dame in seki).

To win, therefore, a player simply had to have more than half the points on the board, i.e. more than 180.5 points, ignoring komi for now.

So the score might be 181-180, or 182-179, or 185-176.

The usual way to count is this:

  • remove all dead stones (return them to their owner).
  • divide all points in seki equally between the players (you can now put stones on them to mark their owner). If this is odd, one seki point will be left, giving both players 0.5 points.

Count only one color (e.g. black):

  • Rearrange that player's territory (surrounded empty spaces) into multiples of ten. To do this, feel free to remove stones from the territory, or add stones from the bowl to it. (this is usually where westerners get confused :) )
  • Count the territory, remember the value.
  • Now, remove all white stones from the board, then rearrange the black stones into clumps of ten stones (plus some left over). Do not, at this point, move stones to or from the bowl!
  • Count black's stones.
  • Add black's scores together, to get a final score.

If the final score is more than 180.5, black wins.

Now, to have komi come into the picture:

  • After totaling black's score, substract the komi value from his score. (if you counted white, add the komi to his score instead).

Now, with 3.75 points, suppose that Black had 184 points on the board. Substracting 3.75 gives a score of 180.25, which is not enough to win. Black lost by 0.25 points.

If black had 184 points, then White had 177 (it has to add up to 361). So by our standards, black was 7 points (184-177) ahead on the board, and with the komi of 7.5 (double of 3.75) lost by half a point.

Had we counted white, then we would have gotten 177 + 3.75 = 180.75 for white. Just enough to win by 0.25 points.

The reason for the X.75 instead of whole or X.5 komi, of course, is to make ties impossible (including those cases where there's an odd number of shared dame in seki, giving half point scores)


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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #6 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:13 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
I'm also confused by the weird komi in the game. Why is it half of what is normal under Chinese rules?


You've just offended over 1 billion people by calling their komi weird! Better get the passport ready.

If you look at games you get from the internet, sometimes even those from China, you will see infelicities such as komi in a Chinese game being given as 6.5, or no-komi games with 0.5.

But if you look at a game in a Chinese book or magazine, you will see komi (in a Chinese-rules game) given as e.g. 黑贴3¾子 (Black gives 3.75 komi) and a counted result as 白胜2¼子 (White wins by 2.25).

You can double up to get a more familiar figure, but that will sometimes give not just a different-looking result but a totally wrong one (it changes the colour of the winner), and there are also problems with handicap games, so doubling up is not really a good idea, certainly not in a factual thing like the GoGoD database.

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #7 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:28 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
I'm also confused by the weird komi in the game. Why is it half of what is normal under Chinese rules?



If you look at games you get from the internet, sometimes even those from China, you will see infelicities such as komi in a Chinese game being given as 6.5, or no-komi games with 0.5.


One very nice thing about GoGOD is that it is pretty consistent about marking games with the rules (SGF RU[Chinese] in this case) and then quoting the result and komi according to that ruleset. IMHO, it's much better than questionable attempts to translate the result and komi.

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #8 Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 2:34 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
But if you look at a game in a Chinese book or magazine, you will see komi (in a Chinese-rules game) given as e.g. 黑贴3¾子 (Black gives 3.75 komi) and a counted result as 白胜2¼子 (White wins by 2.25).

You can double up to get a more familiar figure, but that will sometimes give not just a different-looking result but a totally wrong one (it changes the colour of the winner), and there are also problems with handicap games, so doubling up is not really a good idea, certainly not in a factual thing like the GoGoD database.


How does doubling change who won? White wins by 2.25 *2 = White wins by 4.5?

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #9 Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:36 am 
Oza

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Quote:
How does doubling change who won? White wins by 2.25 *2 = White wins by 4.5?


You would be doubling the komi as well, but 7.5 != 6.5 (there are last-dame implications as well)

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #10 Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:40 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
How does doubling change who won? White wins by 2.25 *2 = White wins by 4.5?


You would be doubling the komi as well, but 7.5 != 6.5 (there are last-dame implications as well)


That would only happen if you double the komi and then change the rules from area scoring to territory scoring.

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 Post subject: Re: Gan Siyang meets a master
Post #11 Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:49 am 
Oza

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You need to get into pass stones and such. But in any case Chinese games normally take place under Chinese rules (not AGA rules) and are recorded and reported as such. We respect that.

See "The Incident Room" PowerPoint presentation on the GoGoD CD for many examples of hiccups overs rules.

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