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Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
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Author:  tapir [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
We had the initiative for a semi-professional league system (eurogopro.org if anyone remembers), we read now the AGA is planning a professional system (with some Korean help). I have a strong feeling those initiatives are a big waste of time and enthusiasm and destined to failure for obvious sociological (too small population) and economical (not enough money) reasons. Does anyone disagree? Are there any plans that don't include CJK federations paying for the whole show or - surprise - a big sponsor, who has yet to be spotted?
Author:  Laman [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
there is also some new initiative in Europe. i've heard about it after this year's EGC. but i don't know exactly what is it going to do, as there was no official announcement (i would know about) and the unofficial info was a bit unclear. one goal i've heard about was raising funds and sponsoring tournaments for European top players, without formal pro/ama distinction and possibly some training for Europeans with Asian pros

it is true that with current state of go in Europe (and i suppose in US too), our players can't successfully compete with Asians and our go associations don't have money to give the 'pros' living by themselves, so from this point of view it is pointless to establish a pro organization. but what to do in order to change it?
Author:  kitanifan [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
I too think it is a waste of money to establish an organization that would be inferior to East from the very beginning. We don't have enough good players, and even if europe had 3 Dinerchteins, it wouldn't be enough, since it makes sense that a pro organization has a sort of living league. And to make that, the raise of avarange go strenght is needed - a popularization of the game is needed. And these points should be priorities of western go, not some utopic ideas...
Author:  tchan001 [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
Perhaps some good idea could be gleaned from looking at how the the Japanese professional organization, the Nihon Kiin, was first started.
You can check out my blog entry for my scans of my copy of the original Prospectus for the Establishment of the Nihon Kiin.
I can't really help with translating the documents from Japanese because I really don't know Japanese myself. But hopefully others more skilled in Japanese would be able to make more of it.

Good luck with the initiatives.
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
kitanifan wrote:
We don't have enough good players, and even if europe had 3 Dinerchteins
Nit: actually, these days it's looking like Dinerchtein is the third best European born player. He may just be out of practice.
Author:  tapir [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
When talking about not enough players, I didn't mean professional strength players according to CJK standards, I would say the initial strength in a euro / us professional system is hardly relevant, I mean there are not enough 10 kyu players. This is the number that matters and this number is too small and this isn't even addressed by all proposals.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
I think that the time is ripe for a pro system in the U. S. (I do not know enough about the situation in Europe to comment. :)) I say that because I think that the sea of amateurs is strong enough and wide enough to support budding pros. In addition, the internet has made it possible for children with an interest in go to play against strong competition, even if they live far from a go center.

Yes, it would be the minor leagues. I suspect that, as in Japan over a century ago, the range of pro strength would have to be greater than it is in Korea, China, and Japan today. Top U. S. pros might have to give U. S. pro shodans 4 stones, for instance. There is not much point to a pro system with only a dozen players or so. :)
Author:  pwaldron [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
I think a pro system in the West is a little silly--there's just not enough money yet to make it a really viable livelihood.

If the Asian go organizations are really interested in boosting Western go, one thing they could do is have a more structured qualification for entry into their insei leagues. For example, make an offer that any player who can finish in the top X (maybe top 5?) in the European Championship or US Open will be invited to play for a year as an insei in Korea/China/Japan.
Author:  Nathan [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
Why is it necessary to provide professional go players with enough money to maintain a living. A reasonable compensation at tournaments is all that is necessary. I think a pro league would add a lot to the game in the US. I would compare it to MLS vs EPL, even though its not as high level its still fun and promotes the game.
Author:  pwaldron [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
Nathan wrote:
Why is it necessary to provide professional go players with enough money to maintain a living. A reasonable compensation at tournaments is all that is necessary.


Right now the Western world doesn't have enough compensation at tournaments--they cannot earn a living in this way. In truth I think most of a Western pro's compensation would come from giving lessons, but it's not even clear there's enough of a market to do that either.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
Nathan wrote:
Why is it necessary to provide professional go players with enough money to maintain a living. A reasonable compensation at tournaments is all that is necessary. I think a pro league would add a lot to the game in the US. I would compare it to MLS vs EPL, even though its not as high level its still fun and promotes the game.


I think you've provided a great example here.

On another note, I think having a professional system in the USA would be a great boost for the community. I'd suggest that they start small. Create an annual tournament and try to find a sponsor for that one event. That shouldn't be too difficult. And have a yearly pro exam in which one has to perhaps pay a marginal entry fee. So, in essence, you could get some funding simply from the pro exams each year. I imagine a lot of players would be looking to participate each year.

But then you'd also have to make it to where the system doesn't become over-saturated, which could be tricky. Perhaps there could be a relegation system (like EPL) where if you finish at the bottom of the lowest tier in a year, you lose your professional ranking. The only problem there is, it doesn't really seem like you're a professional if you could lose your ranking.

Anyway, once you get the basic foundation out of the way, you could expand maybe to include another large annual tournament. I suppose this could be a title system, similar to what the East has.

Just an idea, though. I definitely know I'd be excited about the USA having a professional Go system.
Author:  gogameguru [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
It would definitely be exciting to have Western pro institutions, if they were financially sustainable. I just don't see how they can support themselves without help from Asia at the moment (if someone knows how it's supposed to work, please explain it to us).

Personally I still think that the majority of time and money should go into promoting the game to new players. We have to think about the opportunity cost of these efforts to start a pro system, when the resources could be used for promotion instead. If we continue to grow the game, then establishing a pro system and whatever else will become much easier in the future. I think tapir's point about there not being enough 10 kyus hits the nail on the head.

This is basically what I said to Canbek in the interview he did here: http://alakaycanbek.wordpress.com/2011/ ... d-ormerod/
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
What would a professional system provide that is not currently available?
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
HermanHiddema wrote:
What would a professional system provide that is not currently available?


You could use that logic for any professional system. Like, NFL, NBA (ha ha), NHL, ect.

A professional event usually generates more excitement than an amateur event.

Are you going to watch Manchester United play Liverpool or Virginia Somethings battle the North Carolina Fuzzballs? Just an example.

Or you could look to Japan's Go scene which is dominated by news about Professional Go players.

I think the term "professional" creates excitement. Now, whether the USA is ripe for such a system at the moment is another debate. I won't argue with the fact that maybe we should put more emphasis on expanding the player base before trying to establish a "pro league" that could be doomed to fail due to the lack of a market for such a thing, but I think ultimately, having a professional system would be a major boost for Go in the USA.
Author:  Laman [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
HermanHiddema wrote:
What would a professional system provide that is not currently available?

opportunity for top players to earn their living by go, thus allowing them to devote most of their time to it.

what distinguishes Western go world from the Eastern one? we have few players, our top players are not good enough, (because) a. they come from a smaller player pool, b. they learn the game late, c. they have worse training environment, d. they can't spend so much time with go.

improving a. is the most logical and natural start in order to establish a professional go scene and it positively affects all other points. on the other hand, i think it has always been a main long-term goal of go associations. so why we lack a significant success? don't go associations promote go? or do they do it ineffectively? or is our situation getting better and we just need time to catch up? or aren't Westerners interested in playing board games? (for this one, i don't think so, chess aren't doing bad).

starting a pro organization helps d. and in a long term also affects the other points, but it is unfortunately a bit like building a house from the roof. so, what do you suggest? i would love to see specific points and proposals much more than just "it wont work", "it is silly", "it is a waste of time and enthusiasm" (and "we need more players" is not very helpful either)

we can compare our situation to the Asian countries before establishing their professional go organizations. how did it work there? i know a bit about Japan, but very little about the other ones, particularly Taiwan. we can compare ourselves to chess players. how did they start as professionals? both these comparisons are imperfect because there already were quite large player populations. so what about chess in Asia? at least Chinese already made it to the world top 100

lets make this a brain-storming thread rather than a complaining thread
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
hailthorn011 wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
What would a professional system provide that is not currently available?


You could use that logic for any professional system. Like, NFL, NBA (ha ha), NHL, ect.

A professional event usually generates more excitement than an amateur event.

Are you going to watch Manchester United play Liverpool or Virginia Somethings battle the North Carolina Fuzzballs? Just an example.

Or you could look to Japan's Go scene which is dominated by news about Professional Go players.

I think the term "professional" creates excitement. Now, whether the USA is ripe for such a system at the moment is another debate. I won't argue with the fact that maybe we should put more emphasis on expanding the player base before trying to establish a "pro league" that could be doomed to fail due to the lack of a market for such a thing, but I think ultimately, having a professional system would be a major boost for Go in the USA.


Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
Laman wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
What would a professional system provide that is not currently available?

opportunity for top players to earn their living by go, thus allowing them to devote most of their time to it.


That does not require a professional system, that requires money. If enough money were available to pay top European amateurs a living wage, they could earn that money regardless of whether they call themselves 7d or 1p. Calling them professionals does not magically make money appear.

Creating a professional system without the money to support it is putting the cart before the horse. You need a financial base first, titles later, not the other way around.
Author:  shapenaji [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
HermanHiddema wrote:

Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.


So in this case, it was the Korean Baduk Association's idea, it's not just an empty title, the pros would have the freedom to participate in pro-only tournaments in Korea as guests of the KBA.
Author:  shapenaji [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
Also, from what I understand, they're really only interested in young strong players, a rating cutoff wouldn't fly with them afaict
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Initiatives for a Professional System in the West
shapenaji wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:

Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.


So in this case, it was the Korean Baduk Association's idea, it's not just an empty title, the pros would have the freedom to participate in pro-only tournaments in Korea as guests of the KBA.


Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.
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