Life In 19x19
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Math Trade for books?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2974		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Math Trade for books?
Does anyone know how BoardGameGeek math trades work? I only know the basica and have never participated in one. However, basically, people say 'I want to get rid of these games' for a few days. After those few days, there's a list of available games, and you can mark which ones you're interested in. After that, there is a tool (which I know nothing about) that matches all of these requests, so that person 'a' may send one game to person 'b' and receive one in return from person 'c'.

If anyone knows how this sort of thing works or how to set it up, I was thinking that we could do the same idea with go books? It seems like we finish reading books and sometimes don't intend to go back and reread them for a long time, so we might be better off swapping them around a bit.
Author:  Phelan [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
Seems like an interesting idea. I have nothing I'd like to trade right now, though.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
You don't think western go publishers, authors and booksellers have enough disincentives already? Many books struggle to sell 50 a year.
Author:  jts [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
"Swapping" books is just another name for communism, and as such is a violation of the intellectual property of the authors of those books.

EDIT: Oops, John ninja'd me.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
John Fairbairn wrote:
You don't think western go publishers, authors and booksellers have enough disincentives already? Many books struggle to sell 50 a year.


I figure, if I can afford to buy 10 go books a year, but a legal way to read 20, I'll do that. I would in no way want to stop buying new books, have no fear. =) Just trying to stretch limited funds a bit.
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
jts wrote:
"Swapping" books is just another name for communism, and as such is a violation of the intellectual property of the authors of those books.

EDIT: Oops, John ninja'd me.


^This is a fantastic fallacious argument... I swear, when I read your first sentence, I thought you were kidding. Then I read the next two sentences and realized you were serious.

Communism has nothing to do with the legality/illegality or morality/immorality of swapping books. Can you make a counter argument which doesn't resort to red herrings like communism?

By your logic, sharing a cupcake is communism, and is thus a violation of baker's rights.

(I personally believe John is right, this is not a good idea with this group, sales are very low, and the greater publicity that would be gained by the underground movement wouldn't result in higher sales. However, I can't STAND it when people pick up these buzz words and apply them to anything they don't like)
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
jts wrote:
"Swapping" books is just another name for communism, and as such is a violation of the intellectual property of the authors of those books.

Really? Communism is a system of government that aims to eliminate societal classes and private property. Unless Chew is advocating for an overthrow of the government, to call it communism is simply absurd. You would do better to call it copyright infringement, as that would be within the realm of possibility. However, this would still be wrong, as Chew is living in America and thus the First-Sale Doctrine applies. You may think it is bad for Go book publishers if he swaps books with others, but it is definitely not illegal.

For what it's worth, I am not convinced that swapping books would actually result in lower sales to publishers. If you particularly enjoy a book, you may want to buy yourself a permanent copy. If you want to keep a permanent copy, than that is one less book you can swap. Plus, if you have your appetite whetted by reading Go books, you might come to appreciate them more and thus be more interested in buying them. However, this paragraph is moving into the realm of the copyright/piracy debate that is ongoing, and so to avoid associating the completely legal activity of trading away old possessions with the questionable practice of piracy, I will stop here.
Author:  jts [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
shapenaji wrote:
Can you make a counter argument which doesn't resort to red herrings like communism?


What about socialism... do you think socialism is a red herring?

shapenaji wrote:
By your logic, sharing a cupcake is communism, and is thus a violation of baker's rights.


Normally when you share a cupcake you divide it into two parts and each person eats one delicious cupcake-morsel. No swapping involved. If you shared the same bite of cupcake, on the other hand, that would be communism. We shouldn't talk more about this example of yours, though. Joaz is trying to keep this a family-friendly establishment.
Author:  deja [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
Are public libraries okay?
Author:  shapenaji [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
jts wrote:
shapenaji wrote:
Can you make a counter argument which doesn't resort to red herrings like communism?


What about socialism... do you think socialism is a red herring?

shapenaji wrote:
By your logic, sharing a cupcake is communism, and is thus a violation of baker's rights.


Normally when you share a cupcake you divide it into two parts and each person eats one delicious cupcake-morsel. No swapping involved. If you shared the same bite of cupcake, on the other hand, that would be communism. We shouldn't talk more about this example of yours, though. Joaz is trying to keep this a family-friendly establishment.




YES socialism is a red herring in this conversation. Socialism and Communism are both forms of government (where communism is a far left subset of Socialism).

A group of people implementing a bartering system is not socialism, or communism... Are you really this dense?

Are you one of those people who is swayed by the absurdist godwin-violating refrain of "Obama is a Nazi", or the hilariously ignorant "Health Care reform is communism"?


See Dusk Eagle for a more in depth refutation...
Author:  jts [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
shapenaji wrote:
A group of people implementing a bartering system is not socialism, or communism... Are you really this dense?


Here I will have to insist that I am the buoyant one. Barter is a mode of exchange that doesn't use a liquid store of value as the medium of exchange. But as you yourself admit, the aim of these "swaps" is, in fact, to prevent people from acquiring new books. It's not as though they're proposing to buy books from Kiseido with pigs and strawberries.

shapenaji wrote:
... or the hilariously ignorant "Health Care reform is communism"?


Well, it isn't, is it? The ACA mandates that people buy health insurance from private insurers on the free market. It's Medicare, Medicaid, the VHA and SCHIP that are dirty, dirty communism.
Author:  Monadology [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
jts wrote:
But as you yourself admit, the aim of these "swaps" is, in fact, to prevent people from acquiring new books.


Completely seperate from the validity of any of your other claims, there is absolutely no way that you can be serious when claiming that the aim of sharing a book is to prevent someone else from buying that book. You're doing this to pull our legs, right?
Author:  jts [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
Dusk Eagle wrote:
jts wrote:
"Swapping" books is just another name for communism, and as such is a violation of the intellectual property of the authors of those books.

Really? Communism is a system of government that aims to eliminate societal classes and private property.


Why do we have to bring class into it?


Dusk Eagle wrote:
For what it's worth, I am not convinced that swapping books would actually result in lower sales to publishers.


If this line of argument is right, then why has musical communism crippled the music industry? link

(Shapenaji will no doubt object to my use of "communism", preferring "piracy", but piracy can only happen at sea, whereas communism can happen anywhere -- even where you least expect it... :-? perhaps even on your friendly neighborhood go forum... :o )
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
Could we end the communism/socialism debate? From the forum rules: "Religious, political, and sexual topics are not allowed." and "Keep posts relevant to the topic..."

Thanks.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
Back on topic...

I'd be interested in this idea. However, given that we're a small community, I think 1-to-1 swaps (that is, A gives to B and B to A) would work better. This also requires no more infrastructure than what we already have, and it also ensures that you only trade with people whom you trust. It can also be negotiated whether the swaps are permanent or temporary if done 1-to-1.

As much as I like this idea, I'm not sure how much I could actually be a part of it, as I only have three Go books total, and at the moment would only be willing to part with two.
Author:  tapir [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
Chew Terr wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
You don't think western go publishers, authors and booksellers have enough disincentives already? Many books struggle to sell 50 a year.


I figure, if I can afford to buy 10 go books a year, but a legal way to read 20, I'll do that. I would in no way want to stop buying new books, have no fear. =) Just trying to stretch limited funds a bit.


You want to read twenty go books a year? That is you want to buy, read and study a new book every two weeks? (And still have time to play, post here etc.?) I can't imagine how people are doing that. I figure most sales are to collect the books, not to study them. (Swapping probably isn't attractive for collectors.)
Author:  judicata [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
Araban wrote:
Could we end the communism/socialism debate? From the forum rules: "Religious, political, and sexual topics are not allowed." and "Keep posts relevant to the topic..."

Thanks.


I was about to post something, but I want to make sure I'm okay with the TOC.

Discussing whether such a project would be harmful or helpful to the community at large is certainly okay, right? If we can drop the political tags?
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
tapir wrote:
You want to read twenty go books a year? That is you want to buy, read and study a new book every two weeks? (And still have time to play, post here etc.?) I can't imagine how people are doing that. I figure most sales are to collect the books, not to study them. (Swapping probably isn't attractive for collectors.)


That's fair, I aimed my ballpark a bit high. A more accurate estimate is that I can probably afford to buy 5 books per year, and I would probably have time to read a few more than I buy. I had not really thought about any impact on booksellers/writers. I really just like the idea of having a new book to read, despite the fact that it's probably a bad time to buy one right now. =) Sorry if I made a ruckus, I wasn't intending harm to anyone... I typically don't.
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
judicata wrote:
Discussing whether such a project would be harmful or helpful to the community at large is certainly okay, right? If we can drop the political tags?
:scratch: Nothing wrong at all to discuss the trade project / staying on topic with OP's topic of discussion. Just not this system of government debate.
Author:  hoshizora [ Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Math Trade for books?
I have participated in two of these Math Trades on BGG and know the general theory (it's about finding cycles in a directed graph where vertices represent trade items and arrows represent wants). Usually people use programs to work them out in an automated fashion, but if the volume is low enough you could probably work it out by hand...
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