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Offline Samura
 Post subject: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #1 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:50 pm 
Dies in gote
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Posts: 57
Location: Porto Alegre, Brazil
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Rank: KGS 14 kyu
KGS: Samura
Hi, my first post here,

In the last game I played, as white, this situation happened (it's only a fragment of the board). I had only 30 seconds (byo-yomi) to try to kill the black group. I played R1, but the black player (another 18k) got to live.

My question is: this is an easy problem? I'm am currently KGS 18k, how strong one probably must be to solve this problem in a game in 30 seconds? There is some "theory" to guide me?

I'm a newbie, if this is a too lame question, I'm sorry. It's just that it was the first life and death problem that arose in my games and I'm really curious! Thank you.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline xed_over
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #2 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:08 pm 
Oza

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:w1: in your diagram doesn't do anything

how about this instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc what is black going to do?
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . , . . . . . O O . O |
$$ . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ . . . . . O X 1 . X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


or even this still
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc should still kill
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . , . . . . . O O . O |
$$ . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ . . . . . O X 2 . X X |
$$ . . . . 1 . 3 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Last edited by xed_over on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post by xed_over was liked by: Samura
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Offline sequencer
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:09 pm 
Beginner
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Location: Wuppertal, Germany
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Rank: KGS 3 kyu
KGS: sequencer
IGS: sequencer
OGS: sequencer
Hi Samura,

welcome to the forum! It is a simple problem, I think a 15 kyu should solve it within 30s.

There are books around, like "Life and death", "Graded go problems", or you could try http://www.goproblems.coom.

_________________
Greetings, Helli

This post by sequencer was liked by: Samura
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #4 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:16 pm 
Oza

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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
It's not an absolute beginner problem, but it's on the easier side as far as these things go. I've included a solution (hidden) but do try and figure it out yourself for a bit first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . O O . O |
$$ . . . . O 1 X O . |
$$ . . . O X X 2 X X |
$$ . . O . 3 4 . 5 . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . O O . O |
$$ . . . . O 1 X O . |
$$ . . . O X X 2 X X |
$$ . . O . 3 5 . 4 . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . O O . O |
$$ . . . . O 1 X O . |
$$ . . . O X X . X X |
$$ . . O . 3 . 2 . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 5 at marked stone
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . O O . O |
$$ . . . . O 1 B O . |
$$ . . . O X X 3 X X |
$$ . . O . 2 . 4 . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

This post by skydyr was liked by: Samura
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Offline Samura
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #5 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:20 pm 
Dies in gote
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Location: Porto Alegre, Brazil
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Rank: KGS 14 kyu
KGS: Samura
Thank you all for your replies!

PS: Well, I had to play at N1 first because of this context in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O O . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 1 . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Samura
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #6 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:22 pm 
Dies in gote
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Rank: KGS 14 kyu
KGS: Samura
sequencer,

I bought both "Life and Death (Elementary Series)" and "Graded Problems Vol 1 & 2" and they are at the moment my priority in the reading list! :tmbup:
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Offline xed_over
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #7 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:20 pm 
Oza

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Samura wrote:
PS: Well, I had to play at N1 first because of this context in the game:

ah, makes more sense now :)

then I think
my w P1 and skydyr's w q3 are both good first moves to kill -- there may be others

maybe I shouldn't ask, but what was your move(s) that allowed black to live?
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #8 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:28 pm 
Oza
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xed_over wrote:
Samura wrote:
PS: Well, I had to play at N1 first because of this context in the game:

ah, makes more sense now :)

then I think
my w P1 and skydyr's w q3 are both good first moves to kill -- there may be others

maybe I shouldn't ask, but what was your move(s) that allowed black to live?

Op says he played r1, I'm guessing b followed with s1.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #9 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:30 pm 
Oza
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Samura wrote:
Thank you all for your replies!

PS: Well, I had to play at N1 first because of this context in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O O . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 1 . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There may be even more context, but try to read out what happens if w says "screw it" and plays q2 anyway.
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Offline Samura
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #10 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:38 pm 
Dies in gote
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Rank: KGS 14 kyu
KGS: Samura
The game followed as this (remember that I'm a 18k playing with 30s).

I played instinctively at R1 to kill some possible bent three shape, as it's a very common solution in beginner tsumegos. So, this is an instance where memorized learning didn't worked. :mad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 6 X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 3 4 1 2 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Samura
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #11 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:51 pm 
Dies in gote
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jts wrote:
There may be even more context, but try to read out what happens if w says "screw it" and plays q2 anyway.


I must admit that to sacrifice 3 stones is yet unthinkable to me... but I'm aware that sacrifices are very common in pro games. I'll try to think about this problem. Thank you!
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #12 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:44 pm 
Oza
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Well, which stone/s will you actually sacrifice by playing at q2?
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Offline Samura
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #13 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 pm 
Dies in gote
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KGS: Samura
Ops, we need some context again:

I would lose the M2 group playing Q2, I think. But I still need to read all possibilities... Amazing how this turned in a great tsumego! (for me at least).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , . X O O . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X O 1 . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #14 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:36 am 
Oza
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The context is important, isn't it? :) In this case, this is what I was trying to get at: if you had one more liberty for your three surrounded stones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , . X O O . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X O 1 2 . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . C O . 3 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...now what?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , . X O O . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X O . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . C O . X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Samura
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #15 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:28 pm 
Dies in gote
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Posts: 57
Location: Porto Alegre, Brazil
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Rank: KGS 14 kyu
KGS: Samura
Hhhmm, after N1 the best I think black could do is to get a ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , . X O O . O O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X 3 X O 2 X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . C O 1 X . 4 . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Numsgil
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #16 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:29 pm 
Lives in gote
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If it's any consolation, R1 was my first gut reaction, too. I'd guess the problem is maybe 10k; you have to read maybe 5 moves deep to see that the faux shape point move doesn't work, and the refutation is again slightly odd (black's first instinct would be to connect at R2, which again doesn't work).

_________________
1k KGS

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Offline xed_over
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #17 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:30 pm 
Oza

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Samura wrote:
Hhhmm, after N1 the best I think black could do is to get a ko:

no ko. just capture and kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O O . . O . |
$$ . . X , . X O O . O O . O |
$$ . . . X . O . . O . X O . |
$$ . . . . X O . 3 . O 2 X X |
$$ . . . . C O 1 . 5 4 . . . |
$$ --------------------------[/go]
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Offline Samura
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #18 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:17 pm 
Dies in gote
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KGS: Samura
:o

You are right! And don't know how a didn't see the P3 stone in my reading... :oops:
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: A life and death problem from my last game
Post #19 Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:43 pm 
Lives in sente

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Anyway, the main thing you should learn from this thread: context is important!
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