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 Post subject: l&d from a game
Post #1 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:14 pm 
Lives with ko

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From a 9x9-game I played on OGS against a 1d. Looks like a standard shape (and maybe there is a standard answer), but I had to resort to non-standard solutions (well, for my (3k) standard of standard ;). I found it highly instructive and enjoyable. You might too:

White to live:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . B |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


If you think "I only see ko", think harder.

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 Post subject: Re: l&d from a game
Post #2 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:23 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Double-Ko? 1
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . 5 |
$$ | . . . X . X O 3 B |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Double-Ko? 2
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O 1 O |
$$ | . . . X . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . X . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O X 2 |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


or...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Simple Ko?
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . B |
$$ | . . . . X . 4 1 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 2 |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Given the board position, White will win that Ko and lose the game =D


Ahh, missed something:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The obvious Ko? 1
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . B |
$$ | . . . . X . 3 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 1 |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The obvious Ko? 2
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . X |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O 4 |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 7 |
$$ | . . . X . X X 5 X |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The obvious Ko? 3
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 9 X |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O 0 |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . X . X X 8 X |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 The obvious Ko? 4
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: l&d from a game
Post #3 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:40 pm 
Lives with ko

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for all: You can assume that black has a fair amount of external ko threads.

sodesune:

your first answer:
I agree with a lot of what you say. But in the last diagram, white has a better 3, although there is a lot of damage. And anyway, white has a better 1.

your second answer:
I don't agree with your 1. Ko was no option.

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 Post subject: Re: l&d from a game
Post #4 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:45 pm 
Lives in gote
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SoDesuNe:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc No ko
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 3 B |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 2 |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Another variation for b to capture some stones, but I think white lives.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 2 B |
$$ | . . . . X . 4 1 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 5 |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


edit:
I suppose we could force this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc double ko
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . 5 |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 B |
$$ | . . . . X . . 3 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Last edited by leichtloeslich on Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: l&d from a game
Post #5 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:49 pm 
Gosei
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Ahaha, yeah, :w3: makes sense : )

Well, I only added the Ko because I thought White could win it anyway. Your "[...] black has a fair amount of external ko threads" makes it clearer, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: l&d from a game
Post #6 Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:00 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black komaster, White to live
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . 2 |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 X |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Where next? :)

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 Post subject: Re: l&d from a game
Post #7 Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:32 pm 
Lives in sente
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Bill Spight wrote:
....

Where next? :)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . O . 2 |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 X |
$$ | . . , . X . 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . , . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . , X , X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

alive by double ko, 4 necessary so 2 fails

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . O . 5 |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 X |
$$ | . . , . X . , 3 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 . |
$$ | . . , . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . , X , X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

idem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O 1 X |
$$ | . . , . X . 3 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O a O |
$$ | . . , . X . O O X |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . , X , X X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Wa next for second eye as Ba is no option. 2 & 3 are W's miai

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This post by cyclops was liked by: Bill Spight
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