We have discussed here a few times the importance of recognising that understanding any aspect of go is not a lot of use unless we have done the grunt work to embed our knowledge into our subconscious. I just had a rather powerful and even slightly embarrassing reminder of that.

I know the door group. I understand the door group. I know I understand the door group. I can even call up in my mind's eye part of the pages about the door group in Davies's book.

But I came to the following position while inputting a Segoe game, and felt utterly baffled why White (to move) didn't kill the Black group on the left. I stared and stared and still the fog cleared not. In the end I looked at the commentary and realised within a very few words what the answer was.

FWIW my satori had nothing to do with the name - the "door" name is a Davies invention and I've never seen a Japanese name. Also, I realised I was failing because I was trying to do the problem in a brute-force search kind of way (if he plays here, I play there...). The enlightenment in the commentary was simply a mention of the vital point (and from there realisation that there was a standard shape involved). Once I realised that, I didn't have to do any more significant analysis - just a bit of housekeeping round the edges.

What was missing in my brain was the trigger point - along with much else, no doubt . I found it especially interesting and very surprising that prior knowledge of a name (door) was not sufficient of a trigger. On reflection, that made more sense to me in terms of Chinese medicine: knowing the names and alleged functions of the meridians is a waste of time unless you also know the acupoints.

Interesting.

I didn't even look at the 'door' aspect of this group as it makes one eye elsewhere if White tries to capture it by saving the stone preventing it connecting out.

So it's at least alive in gote on my analysis and therefore the White move can't be worth more than a few points and therefore not worth more detailed analysis at this stage of the game...

Not sure what this says about the difference between our approaches to analysing games though.

Jon

Perhaps knowing the door group was a hindrance here. Given that you mentioned the door group that was the first think I looked at but, of course, if that were all there was then black is already dead. Had you not mentioned that I think I would have first looked at the connection possibilities and their threat to produce an second eye.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Brute-force hardly ever is good. Reading should always use meaningful simplifications. Do you mean to imply them when you speak of 'brute-force' or are you missing them? You mention subconscious thinking, but what is its relevance here, IYO? Hopefully not "trust it without conscious thinking":)

The word 'elsewhere' throws me - as far as I'm concerned Black lives in situ if White blocks the outside connection.



For a short while after realising what was afoot, I was also surprised that White didn't take free points (quite a few) but the next few moves showed me that White was rather more concerned with keeping flexibility for his still weak group than I would have been. The older I get the more I realise that strong players worry about their groups ALL the time. I now believe the most important go proverb is "a stitch in time".



Not too sure that I follow this, as I knew the door group but didn't think of it and so didn't apply it here, so it was hardy a hindrance. The hindrance, as I saw it, was lack of a trigger to actually see the door. But possibly the door group means different things to you and me. For me it's a dynamic entity and so includes the forcing hane. Perhaps you just define it by the empty space.



Being more than a tad pedantic, I didn't mention subconscious thinking. I referred just to the subconscious. If I look at the L-group, my subconscious tells me instantly, so there's no real thought involved, that it's dead. In a real game I may need to think consciously if my opponent plays an unusual move or a threat nearby, but otherwise I do trust my knowledge of the L-group without conscious thought. However, when it comes to the carpenter's square, I know the supposed result instantly but I do NOT trust myself to play it out in a game without careful thought. The door group is somewhere in-between for me. I know the outcome, but I need to double check the plays (get the right vital point) but feel that's trivial.

Relying on the subconscious (or: knowledge of shapes) only can be wrong. E.g., a nearby stone on the outside can alter the default status of an L-shape to a different status. The positional environment always matters, as also your game example illustrates.

I am fascinated to know why you think you are saying anything different or new. I said "In a real game I may need to think consciously if my opponent plays an unusual move or a threat nearby, but otherwise I do trust my knowledge of the L-group without conscious thought." Where's the difference?

More important, the game example does NOT illustrate the situation properly in my case, as I see the "shape" more as a dynamic sequence, which includes the necessary hane here, so the "positional environment" in my head is already big enough to encompass the necessary moves. I still think the problem is to do with activating a trigger.

I have no clear idea yet what a trigger might be, but one thought that has occurred to me is simply "location". The L-group, chippie's square, tripod group etc are all anchored in the corner. It may be that the corner angle is enough to act as a trigger. In contrast the door group, as befits its name, is movable, and like the notcher groups it may be that the variable locations along the sides add just enough noise to dampen the trigger.

For me the "trigger" is: ALWAYS consider the context. Even if I first solve a local problem locally only, then I always verify whether the local solution holds in the positional context. Disadvantage: this can be slow. I prefer correct solutions to faster reading whenever this is feasible. If you prefer a compromise with reading speed, you need some more sophisticated trigger.

Since you mention the door group, I would think that E-08 is elsewhere.



Edited to fill out the play.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Bill, why not white here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . O X , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | O . O O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . 2 . X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 1 X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X O X O X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X 3 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . O . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . X X X X . X X , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

John I don't see the connection between embeding the door group into your subconscious and this problem. Below I modified the problem, but the issue remains the same. One difference is that with the original problem Black A10 could possibly do something to the white stones below...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , . . . O X , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | O . O O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X X X . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X O O . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X O X O X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . X X O . O . O . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . X X X X . X X , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . O |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, I don't quite get this thread; I think I know what getting the door group in your subconscious means, but what are triggers?

I can certainly appreciate that knowing some common life and death shapes can make one lazy in reading and not notice when some little outside difference changes things (a mistake I have made on this forum with some L or J groups where the 'dead' player can make a hane first to get a ko (very hard ko, but not dead) as pointed out by drmwc, but this one doesn't seem like that and is more an example of weaknesses in the encircling stones which means black can use threats to connect to make a spare eye (at d13 or e8 depending how white answers). Door group or s'more group, it's 1 eye and you need 1 more.

P.S. emeraldemon, black connects and white is captured in a ladder

P.P.S I wonder why white didn't peep at p6. Was it not a good exchange, or would black have resisted at p7? Maybe that joseki was played after the right side group was there?

= Death Wish.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I'm afraid I miscast the position. It didn't entirely vitiate the post (it adds a ko) but in the of interests of clarity, I'm giving the correction below, plus I have added some moves so that people will know what I mean by the hane.



I'll also try to get my point over again. Forget "door" for the moment. I looked at White 1 and 3 and then just saw a Black shape on the left side which I assumed was dead. I'm not aware of what went through my head but I imagine it was something like "this is a sort of nakade shape, must be dead unless Black can connect out - no, he can't."

I turned to the commentary in desperation and saw the word "hane" and without reading any more (either analysis or commentary) I instantly, and I mean instantly, knew the result was seki.

You could say hane was the trigger, but I don't think that explains it except in a Columbus' egg way. What I'm baffled about is that I looked at that position and did not see any door. I saw a more fundamental nakade-ish shape, but there was nothing there, on the board, that invited me to say "door". But as I said I know the door shape very well and as soon as the word registered in my brain the problem was solved instantly. (For beginners, the proverb is that "the door group is dead" but it's possible to live if there are some standard tricks available round about that let you oil the hinges.)

What I would like to know is whether I have missed some flag or trigger or clue in the position that would have alerted me to the presence of the door shape. As I said before, if there's an L-shape or J-shape in the corner I always see it in neon lights. Like most amateurs I'm always on red alert for ishi-no-shita (under the stones). Double-diamond snapbacks are a snap. But the "door" seems closed to me. WHY? (Mind you, I suppose after this I'll forever be seeing doors under bed.)

For uberdude, the lower right joseki was played in the first few moves before any nearby position could affect it. The P6 peep has long been a bone of contention discussed in older commentaries. In Shin Fuseki days there was always a fear that the peepee might not connect but would play up towards the centre. Here, however, it was White's very next move as he began the twin tasks of strengthening the weak group on the left and activating the aji (perhaps more than you might expect) on the lower side.

Thanks for the clarification, John. I thought that was what you meant by the hane.

I have added a variation for thems as is not familiar with the door group with hane. BTW, I have not committed the door group to memory, myself.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.