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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Guess the next move
Post #1 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:58 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pro-pro 2 stone game, no komi, White to play.

No guarantee that White played the best or only move. I just like it. :)

Where would you play?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Krama
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #2 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:10 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pro-pro 2 stone game, no komi, White to play.

No guarantee that White played the best or only move. I just like it. :)

Where would you play?


I am just a low kyu :D

But this is where I would maybe play.
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Offline macelee
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #3 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:31 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O 1 X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #4 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:19 am 
Judan

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Some initial thoughts of where my eyes lead, not picking any yet...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X a O . . . . . g O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . e . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . h . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . i . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . b . X O . . O c X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a - thick but probably too slow as left group is fine and w has plenty of space on top if black cuts.
b - fairly normal move in this corner, but do we hurt lower group too much?
c - prevent black's 2nd line tesuji to make shape, strengthen us and weaken b
d - (or one to left) aiming to settle here but small, and b very strong. W group is not so weak as out and black lower middle weak too.
e - combine attack and defence, more interesting sort of move.
f - too slow
g - big but rather heavy
h - try to reduce this corner without hurting lower group
i - OMG so crude a pro can't play it can he?
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Offline John Fairbairn
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #5 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:01 pm 
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I happen to know the answer - the reason why will probably be obvious once you know the players - but macelee's suggestion caught my eye because just yesterday I happened to see that tesuji in an old game I was entering. At the time, it gave me pause for thought because it's a tesuji I remember very, very well from beginner days, probably from the old Go Monthly, yet I have rarely seen it in real games.

That got me to wondering (a) was my impression right - apparently yes, for Kombilo shows fewer than 400 games with that tesuji - and (b) why.

It's obviously a good move in principle, as many of the very top pros play it, and the shape in which it can occur is far from rare. So I infer that the planets have to be in a certain conjunction to play it, or it may just be a style thing. But if pressed, I'd say that a top pro, and especially White in a no-komi game, is ultra-chary of fixing shapes. Especially if a similar effect can be achieved by the much more subtle means employed here... But what are your thoughts on that tesuji?
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Offline oca
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #6 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:04 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
i - OMG so crude a pro can't play it can he?


arg... that was my guess... :mrgreen:

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Offline peti29
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #7 Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:24 am 
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oca wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
i - OMG so crude a pro can't play it can he?


arg... that was my guess... :mrgreen:


Yes, mine too. (With the same considerations: would a pro play that move??)
However it seems like a good move in this situation.
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Offline peti29
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #8 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:26 am 
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So? What is the answer?
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Offline schawipp
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #9 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:42 am 
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I'm just a former chess player with materialistic attitude :mrgreen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . a . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . 2 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O Z 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , b b . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . b b . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After that sequence, (i) the white group at the border is settled and (ii) it is probably sente as black might want to protect (a). After that, a white play around (b) looks nice.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #10 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:00 am 
Judan

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schawipp wrote:
(ii) it is probably sente as black might want to protect (a).


It's not sente. Even though white can just manage to live inside (starting with clamp not (a)) black defending lacks fighting spirit, and if he did want to defend it would be to capture that white stone on the outside as that is a more valuable way to fix the corner aji.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #11 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:55 am 
Honinbo

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Here is how Honinbo Shuei played against Karigane.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm55 Honinbo Shuei (W) vs. Karigane (2 stones)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suppose that you could call :w55: a probe, but Black's response seems pretty predictable. Anyway, it's a pretty move. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm55 Honinbo Shuei (W) vs. Karigane (2 stones)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . 2 . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With :w57: White's plan seems to be to sacrifice :w55: to strengthen White outside.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm55 Honinbo Shuei (W) vs. Karigane (2 stones)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X 5 O . . 4 . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . 7 X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . a c . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . 1 8 X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . 2 . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With :b58: Black shifted to the top side. Then White switched back to the left side with :w61:. Later White connected at "a", Black secured the corner with "b", and White continued with "c".

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #12 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:57 am 
Honinbo

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Here is the whole game. :)


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #13 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:01 am 
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Edit: Bill posted the answer before I got this up, but I'll post it anyway to preserve my kyu level reasoning for all to see. :-)

My considerations:

  • White seems to be following a moyo strategy.
  • There are still several points where black has access to the center and could erase much of the white center potential.
  • White needs to play at least two moves to get a solid center framework. Sente is important.
  • It's a two stone handicap game with which John is familiar, so it's probably Shuei and the next move likely makes miai if two options.
  • The black group on the bottom is the only one that seems vulnerable to attack.
  • None of the white groups are in urgent need of a defensive move. (Though the group's on the right side are a bit thin.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . c b . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's a bit of a weak connection with the lower left group, but I think this leaves follow ups at a (build a huge moyo) or b (attack the bottom black group and potentially build a moyo on the right-center half.) Whit still has enough eye potential in the lower right that I think he can manage that group of black jumps out at c and attacks at the same time.
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Offline macelee
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #14 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:50 pm 
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A pro game with similar position:

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/36437/19
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #15 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:09 pm 
Honinbo

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Here is another game. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Pro vs. pro, no komi, Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X X X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another play I like. :)

Where would you play?

Enjoy!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #16 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:16 pm 
Oza

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Bill Spight wrote:
Here is another game. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Pro vs. pro, no komi, Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X X X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another play I like. :)

Where would you play?

Enjoy!


Without much thought my gut reaction is:

Q6, to see what response it gets.


So that clearly is not the answer.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #17 Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:58 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
DrStraw nailed it! :bow: :clap: :salute:

The next few plays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Inoue Shunseki Insek (W) vs. Yasui Shuntetsu, Castle Game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X X X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 8 . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O 7 . 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . , . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . 9 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nice sabakai. :)


The full game:


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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