Numsgil wrote:
This is the joseki I have in mind:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 4 1 O 9 . |
$$ . . . . 6 2 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
I get the flow of the joseki. Black and white trade off making poor shape. Has a certain ugly beauty to it.
What I don't get is what white gets in compensation for black's now
huge corner. White has nice side influence, but black has gotten apparently the entire corner
and, if the joseki continues like this:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . O X C X . |
$$ . . . . O O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Black has apparently 4th line territory and the corner. Black seems to get way too much out of this.
I don't think white wants to play 1 here. Playing black's 2 and sealing him in seems more obvious. Equally, there doesn't seem much point capturing white's stone, so I think black would normally play 2 before doing so (if white saves it, that's awfully slow).
However, I do see why you don't like the joseki, because I felt the same way for a long time. I really can't offer much helpful, except...you're wrong
White gets a fantastic influence shape if he wants it, black can't do anything large scale on that side of the board any more (well, in general). This is far more important than it may look at first sight, it's just one of those things that turns out to be better for white than you'd ever think. If you can play it a bit, and begin to understand this, you'll know you just got stronger.
As a separate point, don't forget:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 4 1 O 6 . |
$$ . . . . 7 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
You can also play like this, and it's sometimes appropriate. Now black has more aji in the corner, but white has less centre power.
Quote:
This other attach 4-4 joseki has similar issues for me:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 7 . X 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . |[/go]
Compare with this "classic" super vanilla 4-4 joseki that ends in gote for black.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ 6 . a . . . . 4 . . |
$$ , . . . 2 . X . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . . |[/go]
I greatly prefer white in this last joseki than in the two previous. Black has a bit nicer position, but not overwhelmingly so, since there are weaknesses that can be invaded later (such as 'a'), and black should expect a slightly nicer position since he moved in the area first. I use this joseki as a measuring stick to get an idea of what I should expect from an approach against the corner when I play: there are two sides, center influence, and corner territory to share. Black and white share corner territory, white makes a solid position on one side, and black gets a bit of center influence and invadable side territory.
Since the attach joseki are considered joseki (and therefore even with the "vanilla" 4-4 joseki), I think I'm missing something fundamental here. Black seems to get center influence, corner territory, and side territory/influence, and white gets only side territory/influence. So something of black's needs to be less strong than I think it is for the books to balance.
Is the corner invadeable? I've tried in a few games to form a tripod group invasion as white on different variations of these joseki, but I think with optimal play white can't form a tripod group that can live.
I guess I feel like I really understand (grok) the "vanilla" joseki. I understand each of the moves, and I understand how they work together and how to work with and around them later in the game. With the attach joseki, I understand the individual moves (or they at least jive with my understanding of how to handle contact fights), but I don't really understand follow-up moves, aji or invasion potential later in the game, so it's all a bit of a mystery and I find myself experimenting with different approaches unsuccessfully in-game.
Since white looks more solid than black (who has bad shape and is floating a tad high off the edge), I feel like there should be some big mid to late game moves for white in the area but I can't really find them. And if I do nothing the whole thing becomes black territory.
If black has other stones in the area, his position is really pretty strong, and it's a reasonable moyo for him to make (but invadeable by the normal methods). If he doesn't, it's another position that I know is wrong but cannot describe why, other than in the 'try it a lot and see' way. Basically, I suppose, black has a lot of stones surrounding not that much territory (since white can still approach the other side) and some aji in the corner, especially with the big endgame hane-connect.
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