Noseki Question: 4*4 Tsuke-Hane

SoDesuNe · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . 4 1 . . . . . | $$ . . 3 2 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I have to admit, I was and still am completely lost when facing this cut. Maybe I'm missing something obvious but back in the game my opponent played this in two corners and several moves later I just could resign.

How to deal with :b4:

here?

daniel_the_smith · #2

Pros tend to play a diagonal I would never have thought of (P18 in your diagram). http://dailyjoseki.com/browse/bwpwxibwnwwmbxh

Tommie · #3

SoDesuNe wrote:

I have to admit, I was and still am completely lost when facing this cut. Maybe I'm missing something obvious but back in the game my opponent played this in two corner and several moves later I just could resign.

If you had to resign 2 moves later, than you either missed the reading capabilities
to see what would be captured or failed to capture
and/or
where frustrated that it did happen (the capture).

If you are unaware of the strategic concept behind it (see below),
then the disadvantages might come slowly (black positions too narrow, see ex. in 2nd link).

On the other side, if White plays this just anywhere, then she is settling corners unnecessary (e.g. esp. in handicap games).

Quote:

How to deal with :b4:

here?

-> http://senseis.xmp.net/?SystematicJoseki4436464737

Quote:

The strategic concept behind it:

Often played to overconcentrate (here Black) the colour who has to (or will) capture the cross-cutting stone:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?AttachCrosscutCornerPatterns#2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Play to overconcentrate $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . a g . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O , 1 2 d e . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X 3 . f . . . . . B . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

SoDesuNe · #4

daniel_the_smith
Funny, the resulting position reminds me of a one from Attack and Defense, where forcing moves were explained ^^

Thank you for the link!

Tommie
Hm, hard to meassure. I have experienced that I go blank everytime I have to face crosscuts. I start reading in every direction and get confused over the possible continuations, so that I end where I started - not knowing where to play.

Here are the diargrams from the actual game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Moves 9 to 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 O 4 6 7 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X 2 X 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Moves 27 to 36 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 0 O X 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thank you, too, for the link. Now I have something to hold on : D

gaius · #5

SoDesuNe wrote:

Here are the diargrams from the actual game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Moves 9 to 18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 O 4 6 7 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X 2 X 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think you played well up until move 10 (it's not the most common variation, but it looks even). However, I think move 10 should be atari from the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 7 . . O 6 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 5 O X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

SoDesuNe wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Moves 27 to 36 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 0 O X 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 1 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, I think :w2:

caused the problems. This move should have been one of the other joseki choices on the Senseis page. Good luck!

daniel_the_smith · #6

SoDesuNe wrote:

daniel_the_smith
Funny, the resulting position reminds me of a one from Attack and Defense, where forcing moves were explained ^^

Haha, that's the exact thought I had when I looked it up, except I couldn't remember where I'd seen it before!

Noseki Question: 4*4 Tsuke-Hane

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