I think tenuki is a very viable option indeed

I still think my first diagram is no good for white. Not so much because he ends up low, but because he gets locked into the corner.

Consider this tewari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 8 6 4 . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 5 . 1 . .
$$ | . a . , 3 b . . .
$$ | . . X c . . 9 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Yes, the exhange is weird and unneccessary, but it doesn't really hurt black that much, and black can still play a later.

The exchange removes aji around b and c, so seems pretty neutral.

and on the other hand are pretty terrible moves, IMO.

doesnt seem that terrible
is bad but also look akward and exchange is ajikeshi (i am sure you know that is true)

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

is an old joseki move, no? And might be necessary, but I would hate myself for having to play such an ugly slide; this is why they call the second line the "line of defeat". So given all of that, I don't mind playing the aji keshi and exchanges any more...

_________________
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . .
$$ | . . . , 2 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

How about this?

Sorry, I do not agree with your tewari. There is no "flow" to it, you make white 2 look so unnatural. while it should be a direct response to black 7.

I think the tewari on the position should be like I explained in the main post:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 9 5 3 . . .
$$ | . . 7 1 4 . 8 . .
$$ | . . . , 2 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . 0 . .
$$ | . . . . a . . . .
$$ | . . b . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Here it's clear:

White played two conserative moves with 9 and 5 but we can not call them "bad". But black 7 and 5 is really easy to call bad, so in my opinion the position favors white.

Blacks thiness leave weakness like a or b, which are not easy to answer for black. And the topside is open.

But I really get your opinion Herman. Everyone has a different playing style, I prefer instant profit and reduce my opponents potential later, so grabbing quite a big corner in exchange for a not so effective thickness seems good to me.

But people that value the center more, and feel reluctant to get closed in and take the corner, might want to search for a better way of playing. Indeed, I think that there is a more severe way of playing then this diagram, though I think it's good enough.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 9 8 . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If we compare the first diagram to this joseki, I think Black is a lot more thick in this one. Please note that it's not easy for white to invade either side (he can get certain profit on top, but never reduce heavily).

In our own variation, White has two clear moves on the leftside (see a and b in my diagram) and also the topside is open. So I think that these two thickness can't be compared.

Edit: To illustrate my points better, I would like to show some whole-board positions:

So if Black wedges with 1. Do White want to force white from the top or the bottom? If whites upperleft is considered thickness, the only logical move is to play from the bottom. After all, you want to push your opponent towards your thickness.

But lets imagine the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this diagram, whites group suddenly becomes quite weak. It does not have a clear eye-space, and it seems quite heavy, while blacks group looks quite strong all of a sudden.

If we compare this to my comparsion to the 5-4 joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After 6, does black have any way to make blacks thickness in upperleft weak and floating, and at the same time protecting his own group?

It does not seem that way. So I think these diagrams clearly illustrate the difference in thickness.

Edit ag: Seems switching colors when I made the whole-board examples confused me and I mistook white for black when writing

I can't figure out how to make a diagram so i'll just have to go with words))

So black plays his trick move low approach, white separates as usual, black attaches to the 2 white stones on the right and now---white makes a jump attachment to the first black stone! Is there a good way for white to continue here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

is the obvious response, I think

Possible continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm6
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 X X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 O O X . . . .
$$ | 6 5 3 7 . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X O . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 a . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

White will have to defend the cut at a now, I guess, so he gets gote.

Thats very nice! Where did you find this trick play? Since its not a standard bookish hamete sequence ...somebody just invented it?
Where can i find other cool trick moves like this one? Any links?

I found it in a Chinese go book called 跟吴清源大师学围棋 (gen wuqingyuan dashi xueweiqi) which translates something as "Studying Go with Master Wu Qingyuan (Go Seigen)", I believe (See http://www.bookschina.com/398036.htm for cover picture and some info in Chinese).

The book gives several follow-up diagrams, but since I don't read Chinese I have to judge them by feel. And none of the outcomes really appeal to me (for White)

A Chinese go playing friend has promised to look at it with me in the near future, so I hope to have some answers then.

Is there a diagram called 正解图 ? Or one with text including the first two characters, or maybe just the first? That's likely to be the solution diagram.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

There are nine diagrams, the last of which (given below) is labeled:

图9 吴： 我认为正解如本图

which contains the character sequence you gave.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W diagram 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is then some more text, which presumable explains the letters in the diagram. From what I can make out, it explains that Black will play double hane if white plays at A (the sequence A-B-5-C is given in the text)

My trusty computer translator says, "Wu: I think the normal solution like this chart."

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

So Go Seigen says the correct answer doesnt involve cutting those stones apart?

Anyway it seems like the kind of book i will never lay my hands upon. Any other REALLY peculiar joseki positions like this one? Care to post one or two?

Seems that way, yes



The book is in three parts. Given my lack of Chinese skills, I have to guess a bit, but I would surmise it's something like:

1. Interesting/new/strange joseki moves
2. Openings
3. Middle game tesuji

The move I gave is from part one, and was totally unfamiliar to me. Another one, which I did already know, is this trick move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Then, there are several moves may be unusual or (somewhat) new. E.g:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . 1 .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Next black move at a or b
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . 4 3 . . .
$$ | . . . b 5 . . . .
$$ | . . . . a . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 5 like this instead of at a
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . .
$$ | . . X , O . a . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 5 .
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

None of these, I think, are really new to western players, though they may well be to many of our forum visitors

Anyway, I hope to work through this book together with my Chinese friend, so that I can do more than look at the pretty diagrams

I'll keep L19 posted on any interesting finds

"Diagram 9 - Go: I believe the correct sequence is as shown in this diagram."

Rough translation:
图9 - Diagram 9
吴 - Wu, or Go Seigen's surname
我 - I
认为 - think, believe
正解 - solution
如 - as
本图 - this diagram

The accompanying commentary would be more interesting though.

_________________
My homepages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Unkx80 and http://yeefan.sg/.

it would be very interesting to know what Go Seigen says about the first variation you showed where white cuts and gets a small corner and black gets good shape on the outside))

@unkx80: The rest of the commentary for diagram 9 reads:

大体上如此，若说还有其他变化图， 也可考虑白5接着于A压, 黑B， 白5， 黑C。

@keysersoze:

The commentary and diagram for the first variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Y 3 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 9 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

图2 对黑 ，白如1位应， 黑2是要注意的好手。 走成这样黑坏不了。 把黑 子和白3除掉再看看， 是黑稍好的两分， 而这一交换黑谈不上损。 若这样思考， 白3就应该下4位了。 这也是此外要研究的如题。

And I have no idea what any of that means

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W diagram 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

吴： 我认为正解如本图。大体上如此，若说还有其他变化图， 也可考虑白5接着于A压, 黑B， 白5， 黑C。

Go: I believe the correct sequence is as shown in this diagram. This is an expected result, if we consider other variations, we may also consider W5 pressing at a, Bb, W5, Bc.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Y 3 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 9 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

对黑 ，白如1位应， 黑2是要注意的好手。 走成这样黑坏不了。 把黑 子和白3除掉再看看， 是黑稍好的两分， 而这一交换黑谈不上损。 若这样思考， 白3就应该下4位了。 这也是此外要研究的[问]题。
[ed: changed the second to last character; the original looks like a typo]

Against , if white answers at W1, then B2 is a good move to take note. This result cannot be bad for black. [ed: tewari follows] Taking off and W3, we see that this is a roughly equal position but with a slight advantage for black, and this exchange [of and W3] cannot be said to be a loss for black. If we think this way, then W3 should be played at B4. This is also a problem that should be explored.

_________________
My homepages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Unkx80 and http://yeefan.sg/.

In that case, how many hours did it take you to type it?

_________________
Occupy Babel!

I actually had my girlfriend type it for me. She's learning Mandarin and can read some 1500 characters now. Her Mandarin is not quite good enough to provide a reliable translation, but she can type things like that relatively quickly. There were some 6 or 7 characters total in that post that she didn't know and had to look up.