I completely disagree with this statement. I guess what you are arguing is that the large knight's move is some sort of punishment against white for sliding first, but I don't think this is the case. If you look at topaz's diagram I agree that the aji is worse with the large knight's move. In my opinion, the reason the slide isn't played first normally is because it gives white two options:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . X 6 O 2 . . . . |
$$ , . . 5 4 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

There is no reason to give your opponent more options. Also, in reference to the first diagram, if it's reached from the normal joseki I am pretty sure there aren't pros out there that are like "Oh man now that the corner is like this I wish my extension was the large knight's move instead." Or else they would just play it in the first place.

You and I obviously look at the game differently. You look at this position and say "I'll play keima; it's joseki so it's good." Whereas I look at it and say "since I now have a two stone wall perhaps I should play the ogeima instead of the keima."



Of course not; because there was a reason why they played keima in the first place. Often in a game I'll make a two-space extension then one of the stones gets kicked and now the shape is essentially a two-space extension from a two stone wall. No one would say the two-space extension was wrong, but they would recognize the shape as seeming a bit "cramped" or sub-optimal.

EDIT: Anyway, this is becoming very close to just an argument which is not really appropriate. So I'm going to refrain from any further comments in this thread about this silly matter. (<-everyone reading this)

No! No!

I don't know whether you really think this is what cloud is saying, or if it's a more deliberate strawman, but either way you're misrepresenting him to make your own position look good. This is not a way to debate.



I'm still not convinced that the alternative shape is 'cramped' or suboptimal. Nor is cloud, apparently. I don't think it is enough to say 'in this shape, my move is the correct one', because that kind of reasoning is the kind where someone stronger inevitably comes along and says 'but what about this'

It seems to me that the large knights move takes a little more weakness at the cost of a little more aji. This seems a reasonable exchange to me.



A debate about whether a move is good, or better than an alternative, is not silly. Indeed, as a continuation of the joseki 'mistake' which started the thread, it is a completely reasonable topic for discussion.

I dislike black 9 in both diagrams and wish it were at p14. In this case the large knight's move makes extra points. Also, I was taught that if Black plays the large knight's move in response to a white approach to the corner, white should invade because if the normal joseki is played, Black is doing too well (by 2 points, or maybe slightly more). Just my two cents

Yeah, 5 extra stones tends to cause that...



OK so to make an actual contribution: if I may be so bold, let me try to rephrase what I think cloud is saying:

1. A configuration of stones that is bad, is bad no matter how it was reached. (unstated assumption)
2. Pros will reach "good" positions much more than "bad" ones.
3. Pros reach this position with the short extension a lot more than with the long extension.
4. Therefore, it is very likely that pros consider the short extension to be better than the long one.




I think you meant "black" there?

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5 stones-ish.

Yes, haha. Thanks