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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Life & Death from a game
Post #1 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:27 pm 
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Here is a life and death problem from a recent game, white to kill (on the right side, obviously):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O . X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X . X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]
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Offline Koosh
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #2 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:10 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O . X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X W X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]


:mrgreen:

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #3 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:22 pm 
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Koosh got it, of course.

But I wanted this to be the solution:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O . X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X . X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . W X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]


So I was about to post this modified position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O . X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O O . X . X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . O O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]


Unfortunately, while Koosh's answer doesn't kill this one, neither does mine, because black has a surprising (to me) response. :(

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #4 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:33 pm 
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@daniel
It looks to me like L19 and L17 both work... is there a problem with one of them?
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Offline tchan001
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #5 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . W X . O . X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X . X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #6 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:38 pm 
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@jts

I was thinking of L19, but yeah, both work. Time for bed!

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Offline Koosh
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #7 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:52 pm 
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GrawWw, daniel's answer to the original problem is better than mine :blackeye:

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #8 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:30 pm 
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A small tweak:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O . . X O O . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X . X O . . X O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]
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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #9 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:18 am 
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Koosh was cheating, as he watched the game in which this arose. I played his proposed solution--but I didn't realize there was more than one answer...
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #10 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Araban wrote:
A small tweak:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O . . X O O . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X . X O . . X O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X 6 O 2 5 X O O . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X 3 X O 1 7 X O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O 4 X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]
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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #11 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
Araban wrote:
A small tweak:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O . . X O O . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X . X O . . X O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X 6 O 2 5 X O O . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X 3 X O 1 7 X O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O 4 X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]


How does white respond to this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X 2 O . . X O O . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X . X O 1 . X O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O . X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]
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Offline EricBackus
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #12 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Back to the original problem for a moment...

My first thought was to reduce the eyespace by playing at L17.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O 3 X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X 2 X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O 1 X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X 2 O . X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X 3 X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O 1 X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to kill
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ |. . . O . . . . . X . O 2 X O O . . .|
$$ |. X X X O . O . O X 3 X O X X O O . .|
$$ |X . X . X O . . . O 1 X X X X X O . .|
$$ |. X . , X X O . . O O X X O O X O . .|
$$ |. O X . X X . . . . . X O . O O X O .|
$$ |. . O X . X . . . O . O . O . . X . .|
$$ |. X . O X O O . . . . . . . . . X . .|[/go]

If reducing the eyespace works, why look for more complicated scenarios?
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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #13 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:20 pm 
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EricBackus wrote:
If reducing the eyespace works, why look for more complicated scenarios?


Because more complicated=cooler. :batman:
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Offline EricBackus
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #14 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:09 am 
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judicata wrote:
EricBackus wrote:
If reducing the eyespace works, why look for more complicated scenarios?

Because more complicated=cooler. :batman:

OK, true. :cool:
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #15 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Less complicated = more elegant.

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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #16 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Less complicated = more elegant.


BAH! :)
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Life & Death from a game
Post #17 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:34 pm 
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If two solutions both kill/live, start counting ko threats and endgame points.
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