Need help attacking

emeraldemon · #1

I was white in this game, and I'm looking for the best way to attack these stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm45 How should white attack here? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here's how it went in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Moves 48 to 57 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . X . O 4 8 9 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . 6 5 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . 2 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point, I hallucinated that capturing forced black to connect in gote. I got a rude awakening:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm58 black connects $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . X . O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O 1 X O O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, even if I had played where I needed to, I'm not sure I like white's position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm58 Is this OK for White? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . X . O X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . X O O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems like there's still some bad aji in the P13 P14 area, black can threaten to escape and cut the white groups. What's the best way to handle a position like this?

Smochi · #2

Try s16 instead of s11, threatening to connect with s14.

Solomon · #3

I wouldn't even focus on those stones at the moment, but rather make sure I get this move first (which also does affect those stones on the right):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm45 How should white attack here? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X 5 X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 4 O 6 . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This feels like a natural way of attacking.

gowan · #4

First question is what do you expect or hope to accomplish by attacking? Most likely you won't kill the stones. We attack to get profit or build thickness or influence which can be converted to profit later.

BaghwanB · #5

I'll gladly defer to stronger players, but I'd think the thing to do would be cover the outside first to ensure your side group can get out safely and then poke out eyespace if possible afterwards. So something like Q13 or Q12 to start with?

(Thanks to Joaz for pointing this out to me quite a while back)

Bruce "Eyed in Gaza" Young

emeraldemon · #6

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, it's helpful for me to see other players' ideas.

My goal with :w48:

was to keep the black stones as weak as possible. I felt that I could make them into a heavy group that I could chase across the board. Maybe it says something about my level of play, but I tend to make moves to keep my opponent's group weak, even if I don't really see a way to profit from it at that point. In my experience from games, if I attack an opponent's weak stones, good things usually happen, even I can't predict when or how. (Surprisingly often my opponents let their weak groups get a little too weak...)

A good secondary goal would be to make territory in the corner, which I was willing to sacrifice to make my attack. I noticed both Araban's and Smochi's suggestions also strengthen the corner enclosure somewhat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Araban's Suggestion $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X 2 X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 1 O 3 . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Smochi's suggestion $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . , O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Probably either of these is better than what I played, although there's still the question of how best to profit here. One nice thing about s11 is that it starts to make a base for the side group.

I'm not sure how I feel about the shoulder hit, maybe it is better, but there's still some tricky aji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 BaghwanB's suggestion, can this be dealt with? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · #7

You don't have to do anything to make those stones weak. They already are weak.

I like Araban's move, I'm not sure how long the players left those stones sitting like that but it looks urgent, even if black wasn't making a weak group right there.

Also, I would prefer to have defended already.

Chew Terr · #8

Part of what I like about Araban's suggestion is that it makes things like Bruce's look more appealing/safe/reasonable.

BaghwanB · #9

If only the majority of my plays were "appealing/safe/reasonable"...

Bruce "Sigh" Young

Joaz Banbeck · **#10**

As mentioned above, I'm in favor of making stones strong first, then attacking. I think that white stones on the side have plenty of running room, but it is the white stones in the upper right corner that look iffy. So my first inclination would be to reinforce them.

Araban's method of doing so seems aji keshi-ish to me. I'd like to leave some gaps in black's top side group so that later F17 is sente.

The ideal attacking move would be a cap, but that leaves the white corner unreinforced. So I'd play a hybrid - part reinforcing, part capping - like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . C . X . . X . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fredrik · **#11**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

As mentioned above, I'm in favor of making stones strong first, then attacking. I think that white stones on the side have plenty of running room, but it is the white stones in the upper right corner that look iffy. So my first inclination would be to reinforce them.

Araban's method of doing so seems aji keshi-ish to me. I'd like to leave some gaps in black's top side group so that later F17 is sente.

The ideal attacking move would be a cap, but that leaves the white corner unreinforced. So I'd play a hybrid - part reinforcing, part capping - like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . C . X . . X . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I personally prefer Arabans suggestion.

My thoughts are (could also be wrong).

The number one flaw of your way of reasoning is that F17 is very unlikely to be sente, as Black on the top is more or less settled. So I don't really see the big aji-keshi of Arabans sequence, instead it looks like a normal way to build a thick wall.

Your move is normally reasonable, but it definetly makes M16 looks very weird, while in Arabans suggestion he makes that stone efficient.. (General principle is to make every stone on the board achieve maximum efficiency..) In addition, normally you play this kind of thick "shimari" when you deem the top very interesting, ie you try to build a moyo on top.. (Cause usually your opponent would play this point to reduce..)

Secondly, your move leaves room for sabaki, as it's not as thick as a "wall". Ie, you attach to it.

Lets see if I still remember how to write diagrams to try and explain my thought process..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . C . X . . X . X . O . . 4 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . 6 O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 5 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[/quote]

One variation where it looks like Black can settle himself quite easily..

Another one that looks interesting but would require deep reading is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . C . X . . X . X . O . . 4 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . 6 O 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 5 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[/quote]

At first sight it looks playable for Black, but don't hold me accountable if someone reads out a punishment :-)

If White responds differently to the attach at the second line, the hane will definetly work, ie:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . C . X . . X . X . O . O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . . X O X 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 3 O X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[/quote]

There are some additional responses from white that might be plausible, but I think no matter what Black should be able to make some kind of sabaki.

However, when you make a solid wall like in Arabans suggestion, while it might look slow there is a lot of possibillities to remove Blacks base and make him run painfully. Usually it's better style.

Shaddy · **#12**

I really want r15 in this situation. If I thought I could get m16 first, I'd play m16-connect-r15.

Mef · **#13**

BaghwanB wrote:

I'll gladly defer to stronger players, but I'd think the thing to do would be cover the outside first to ensure your side group can get out safely and then poke out eyespace if possible afterwards. So something like Q13 or Q12 to start with?

(Thanks to Joaz for pointing this out to me quite a while back)

Bruce "Eyed in Gaza" Young

I think there is even a proverb to this effect, along the lines of "Don't go for the eyes until you have a firm grasp on the neck" (=

As far as the position goes, I also fall into the camp of "I'm not sure how N16/N17 came about, but I feel like someone ignored a move their opponent wasn't planning on them ignoring."

emeraldemon · **#14**

Shaddy, do you mean something like this? If so, are you concerned about the cut at a? It seems a bit worrying to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Shaddy's Suggestion $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X 2 X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 1 O a . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Several people have said that the push at m16 looks urgent. One interesting question: if white plays at r15 directly (or somewhere else), would black take m16, or is it not the right place? If black can't find time to play m16, maybe it isn't so urgent for white to take after all...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Shaddy's move, my followup $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X . X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 2 O . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Regarding Araban's solid connection, it makes good sense, but I wonder if black can settle with the attachment underneath:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Does the attach work? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X 2 X . O . . 5 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 1 O 3 . , O 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another thing I might try as black would be to separate if possible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 Is something like this possible? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . X 2 X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 1 O 3 . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . O X X X O . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . X . . X . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks again for the responses, I think it's helpful for me to look at a position like this in some detail.

Need help attacking

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