Dontbtme's Notebook

Dontbtme · **#21**

The Attach-Extend... & Cut

Last week I encountered the situation below on WBaduk: I approached Black from the inside (he had stones down the right) and instead of pincering my stone, he attach-extended on it... and then cut!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black cuts at 6 instead of defending at 'a' $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ . , . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 2 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 6 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Retrospectively, since the right side was the important one, I could have simply settled on it by extending solidly at 1 instead of trying to encroach on the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White settles on the right side $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But since I committed myself towards the corner, I should have taken it one way...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black gives up too much for his influence $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 5 . 3 . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

... or the other.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Still okay for White $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 1 . . . | $$ . , . . . 6 5 X O . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 3 O . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The problem is: I thought I remembered some super variation from a lecture I watched on the Guo Juan's Internet Go School... :-?

So, I ataried at 1 instead and had this awful, catastrophic result :oops:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White should watch TV instead of playing Go $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 2 4 . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O X 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This morning, I finally found the lecture from which came my confusion: Double Approach Lecture 2
The difference with the situation in my game was of course the presence of White's marked stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W One extra stone makes a big difference $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . Q . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 2 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 6 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Like before, White could just connect at 1 after Black's cut, and then link all her stones together:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White takes a big corner $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . 3 . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But apparently, since she has the marked stone in place, she could also choose to atari the cutting stone first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black is asking for trouble $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . Q . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O X 2 . | $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

'But what if Black counter-atari like before?' you might ask. Well, I guess that's where the marked white stone will prove itself useful!
If Black simply extends as in my game, White settles easily on both sides:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ White has it both ways $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . Q . 4 . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 1 3 . | $$ . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O X 2 . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If White has less or no ko threats, then Black can atari at 1 and make a Tiger Mouth at 3, but even then I think White should be able to manage her stones on both sides, unless the surroundings are too much in Black's favor,
in which case I suppose White should not have played the marked stone but should have simply connected as seen before.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Playable for Black? $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . X O 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . X X O 1 . | $$ . . . . . . . O 2 O . | $$ . . . . . . . . Q . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Anyway, that was my note for today. I sure hope I will never get confused by this situation again, and make such a blunder as the one in my game... :grumpy:

Dontbtme · **#22**

Hi, everyone, I got spanked a few days ago on WBaduk :sad:

(here's the video for those interested), and while I didn't enjoy the game much, I found a few interesting things during the review I should keep in mind in the future. So here's the first one.

POST EDITED: The Block & Push after the 'Star Point & Pincer vs. Invasion' Joseki

So, in the game I was White and played the tight pincer when Black approached to spoil the front side in sente and play somewhere else next. As a result, Black could block at 'a' later on.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White settles on the front side and tenuki $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 0 . 4 2 8 . | $$ . , . . . a 5 O 3 6 . | $$ . . . . . . . . 9 7 . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

With the simple sequence below, Black could have taken the easy way to build influence facing my back side. I had stones on the opposite corner that could neutralize it from afar, but seeing my stones becoming crumpled that way would have been a bit painful... Apparently, this result wasn't good enough for Black, since he decided to push once more at 'a' instead of defending at 5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Black develops his shape and bends White's. $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . 5 . 1 O O O X . | $$ . . . . 3 2 . . O O . | $$ . . . . a 4 . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

When Black played at 1, I thought I could resist and fight with a cut at 2 because of the potential weakness at 'a'... but it turned out to be quite an overplay :-?

: Black got super thick in the center while I got super low on both sides :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Cutting at 2 was an overplay $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X a X X X . | $$ . , . . 2 X O O O X . | $$ . . . . X O . . O O . | $$ . . . . 1 O . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Instead, I should have just played hane at the head of two stones. According to Josekipedia, I could have then expected Black to cut, either to create some aji aiming at reducing or overconcentrating even more White later on...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Standard Sequence 1 $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . 7 . X O O O X . | $$ . . . . X O . . O O . | $$ . . . . 1 O . 4 X . . | $$ . . . 6 2 3 5 8 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

... or to push some more and build up a huge wall into the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Standard Sequence 2 $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . . . X O O O X . | $$ . . . . X O . . O O . | $$ . . . . X O . O X . . | $$ . . . 1 O X . . . . . | $$ . . . 3 2 . . . O . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Other sequences have been played out in professional games due to the surroundings, but the standard ones seem to be the above.

As a side note, when it comes to the high two spaces pincer, Black's block at 'a' occurs in only 7 games on Waltheri's go pattern search database vs. 85 games with the tight low pincer. I believe the reason is that: the looser the pincer, the more interesting its side becomes, so that if Black blocked and pushed, White would make too much territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Blocking at 'a' isn't so interesting anymore $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . . . a O O O X . | $$ . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Anyway, those are my conclusions regarding the block after the 'Star Point & Pincer vs. Invasion' joseki :study:

, but remember: I inferred this wasn't the only thing that went wrong during my game... :roll:

More on that, next time.

wineandgolover · **#23**

In your last diagram black also has other choices, like activating the original approach stone, either descending or jumping out. Pushing from above may be aji keshi.

Uberdude · **#24**

Btw, I would call that initial black move a push, not a block. I believe I am in the majority of English-speaking Go players in this regard.

Dontbtme wrote:

Instead, I should have just played hane at the head of two stones. According to Josekipedia, I could have then expected Black to cut, either to create some aji aiming at reducing or overconcentrating even more White later on...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Standard Sequence 1 $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . 7 . X O O O X . | $$ . . . . X O . . O O . | $$ . . . . 1 O . 4 X . . | $$ . . . 6 2 3 5 8 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

On a rather more interesting note, there are other choices to the good shape defence of 4 above: if white has support on the side and a ladder then he can play more aggressively. I found this idea from studying a few pro games (e.g. Gu Li iirc), you should be able to find them with a pattern search. I used it in this OGS game to good effect and made some comments about it (move 43).

Bill Spight · **#25**

Uberdude wrote:

Btw, I would call that initial black move a push, not a block. I believe I am in the majority of English-speaking Go players in this regard.

FWIW,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . 5 . 1 O O O X . | $$ . . . . 3 2 . . O O . | $$ . . . . . 4 . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I would call both :b1:

and

blocks, and maybe :b3:

, although I might call it a hane.

What is

pushing?

Tryss · **#26**

Bill Spight wrote:

I would call both :b1:

and

blocks, and maybe :b3:

, although I might call it a hane.

What is

pushing?

You think of it this way :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $${AR 9:4 7:4} $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . . . 1 O O O X . | $$ . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

He thinks of it this way :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $${AR 6:5 6:7} $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . . . 1 O O O X . | $$ . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Dontbtme · **#27**

Tryss wrote:

You think of it this way [...] He thinks of it this way [...]

Thank you, Tryss, thank you!

I was trying to find a way to explain my feelings about that, but you did it in the simplest and clearest way imaginable... using arrows! :bow:

Genius!
On the other hand, now that I think about it, the sequences I discussed ended in one or more pushes, which means the 'push' can be said to be the main subject... :-?

...Aaargh! That's so complicated! :mad:

But hey! I have an idea! I will (and did) rename my note: The Block & Push after the 'Star Point & Pincer vs. Invasion' Joseki

. A bit too long? :-|

Sure, but that'll have to do.

wineandgolover wrote:

In your last diagram black also has other choices, like activating the original approach stone, either descending or jumping out. Pushing from above may be aji keshi.

Thanks for clarifying that point

I don't really know how to deal with those options that well, so it's no wonder I didn't even talk about them

In fact, I think I should make them the subject of my next post, since the initial settings would be identical. Anyway, I'll look into it. So thanks again.

Uberdude wrote:

On a rather more interesting note, there are other choices to the good shape defence of 4 above: if white has support on the side and a ladder then he can play more aggressively. I found this idea from studying a few pro games (e.g. Gu Li iirc), you should be able to find them with a pattern search. I used it in this OGS game to good effect and made some comments about it.

Thank you for the tip, Uberdude

I did my research on BadukMovies and found only 4 games on which the atari was played, other than the one from Gokifu you mentioned in your review.
To summarize, it seems that if White has some help around the marked intersections, although making shape at 'a' still seems safer and more common, she can attack the cutting black stone directly if she wants to, with an atari at 2 combined with 'b' or 'c' next.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ White counter-attacks $$ ----------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X X X . | $$ . , . . . X O O O X . | $$ . . . . X O . . O O . | $$ . . . . X O . a X . . | $$ . . . c O 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . b 3 . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . . . . T . . . | $$ . . . . . . . T T . . | $$ . . . . . . . T . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I thought maybe I should just post extracts from those games as examples, beginning with the one you mentioned, on which the result was the most spectacular!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ (B) Zhong Wenjing 5p vs. (W) Hu Yaoyu 8p Date: 2010-11-16 Result: W+R $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X 8 X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X 6 7 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 1 X W . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . 3 . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . . . O O O . O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------[/go]

Though the following had also quite an explosive one...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ (B) Su Shengfang 2p vs. (W) Song Ronghui 5p Date: 2012-10-30 Result: W+R $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . O . X O X . | $$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . O . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O X X . 5 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 6 X X O W 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------[/go]

Here, I thought that Black's shape was quite bold

, but there was no collateral damage in the end...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W (B) Li Zhe 6d vs. (W) Jin Siyoung 3d Date: 2008-09-05 Result: B+0.5 $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . 6 7 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 2 X 1 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O X . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------[/go]

In this one, Black decided to attack the cutting stones in a loose way instead of pushing at 'a', and later on White tried shenanigans by combining the descent at 'b' with the attachment at 'c'...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ (B) Wang Xi 9d vs. (W) Tan Xiao Date:2013-01-30 Result: W+R $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . , . . . O X X X O . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . 2 . O X . . X X . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . O X . . O b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . a O . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . c X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . X . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X O . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O , . O . X . X O . O . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O X . O . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------[/go]

In this last game, however, the marked stone being one space further away than in the preceding one, the same loose attack at 1 and 3 resulted in an immediate running fight starting with the turn at 4 and the shoulder hit at 6...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W (B) Meng Tailing 6d vs. (W) Hu Yaoyu 8d Date: 2013-05-29 Result: B+R $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O X . 2 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 5 O X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . 0 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 6 8 . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . Q 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------[/go]

Anyway, I think I have now a better idea of what to expect next time someone plays the Block & Push against me, depending on the context, so thank you Uberdude for you feedback :bow:

.
Next, I shall probably look into the more common options wineandgolover hinted at...

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