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 Post subject: Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.
Post #21 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:20 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Big fight
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a 0 d . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . 6 . b 8 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . 3 . . 4 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


One little question about :b2: in that diagram.

(I'm experimenting with abandoning single stones during fuseki.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Question
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is this alternative :b2: bad? If so, why? (would :w3:, :b4: be a natural exchange?)

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 Post subject: Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.
Post #22 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:41 am 
Judan

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[Note that your numbers don't match up because the diagrams don't start at 1.]

Alguien wrote:

(I'm experimenting with abandoning single stones during fuseki.)



Well your experiment was not successful as you didn't abandon it! It is possible to tenuki that kick, though standing is by far the most common answer. If you do tenuki the standard extension is L4 rather than k4 to keep away from the thickness white builds with the excellent shape tiger's mouth hane on top of your stone. But if you do play tenuki from the kick you absolutely must not pull back and save your stones when white hanes on top, as that is heavy and a great exchange for white. Instead you must be consistent with your tenuki plan and build your moyo with the top side hoshi or approach at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Consistent tenuki for moyo
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , 2 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.
Post #23 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:50 am 
Oza
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@Uberdude
I think you are right as to the early approach's current use. It first appeared at the end of the 90's and the explanations at that time were around disrupting the pattern occurring after White's approach around N4. It's resurgence in 2009 also came about when White mainly played one or another approach move on the bottom side. However, since 2010 White mainly plays the small knight enclosure in the lower left against the Chinese with good success and of course the early approach prevents that as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.
Post #24 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:08 pm 
Judan

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A similar idea to the small knight's enclosure for white on move 6 is the large knight's enclosure: reaching further towards black's moyo but less tight for the corner. It seems to me this was popular in the early 2000s but the small one took over more recently. Gu Li seems to be fond of these moves, fitting his "I'll let you build your stuff and build my own stuff, and then use my amazing invasion skill to destroy your stuff" style. Here's a game of his with this I enjoyed.



I used that as the inspiration for my play in this OGS game of mine and I got a similar result of capturing the right side but on a smaller scale. It's quite a tricky style to play as it was difficult to give black all that territory on the top side (well Gu didn't but then I didn't think I could try an invasion like he did with n12 lost, but maybe I could...) and I think h17 was a big mistake in direction (as he didn't need to defend the k15 cut) and I should have played the other move I considered of d9. I felt behind most of the game but seem to have clinched it by a point or two in the yose.



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2003-12-11e.sgf [1.4 KiB]
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