Life In 19x19 :: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

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Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10216	Page 1 of 5

Author: oca [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:17 am ]

Post subject: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

I used to play a game against a 4 kyu with 9 handicap stones.
He kindly told me to place the stones where I wanted on the goban.

I don't remember the exact position where I placed the hanidcap stones, but I remember that was something quite "classic", with some hoshi, komoku, shimari, extensions and so on...
after a bit more thougth, I wonder what would a game look like if the handicap stones where placed like that :

ok it's 10 stones not 9... but that seems really strong as a starting point...

if only 9 stones :

Then as white... would you place your first move at "a" or would you just take a corner ?
if white "a" I even don't know what I would replay may just "b" or maybe a corner I think... or maybe "c"

Anyone to try that on a malkovitch game :rambo:

[edit]corrected some typo[/edit]

[EDIT SUMMARY ZONE]
Illluck kindly accepted to play some variations with me, here are the summary of those games :

Try #1 - The Island, 10 stones handicap, OGS: http://online-go.com/game/579811
235 moves (255 moves - 20 initials moves to build the initial position)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi if I was playing black :
B(illluck)+56.5 (49.5 + 6.5 + 0.5)

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+--------------------------------------+

The game

Try #2 - Borders & Tengen, 9 stones hanicap, OGS: http://online-go.com/game/586484
212 moves (229 moves - 17 initials moves)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi :
W(illluck)+32.5 (38.5 - 6)

+--------------------------------------+
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+--------------------------------------+

The game

Try #3 - Standard 9 stones, OGS: http://online-go.com/game/588995
294 moves
W(illluck)+20.5

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+--------------------------------------+

The game

EdLee comments :
viewtopic.php?p=164723#p164723

Try #4 - The Big Square, 9 stones hanicap, OGS : http://online-go.com/game/605761
226 moves (243 moves - 17 initials moves)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi :
W(illluck)+39.5 (45.5 - 6)

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+--------------------------------------+

The game

Homework :

[/EDIT]

Attachments:

04_big_square.sgf.sgf [1.8 KiB]
Downloaded 643 times

02_borders_and_tengen.sgf [15.09 KiB]
Downloaded 678 times

01_the_island.sgf [13.51 KiB]
Downloaded 677 times

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:23 am ]
Post subject:
Hi oca, I think that's another popular discussion. I wonder if Sensei's already has something about it... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . X X X . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] I'm curious: what do people think the above dumpling is worth, approximately, in terms of the normal star-point handi stones ? It seems less than 9 stones. (The tengen stone is clearly inefficient. )

Author: Uberdude [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:27 am ]

Post subject: Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Which looks better (more efficient):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . X , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . X , X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

oca wrote:

Then as white... would you place your first move at "a" or would you just take a corner ?
if white "a" I even don't know what I would replay may just "b" or maybe a corner I think... or bay be "c"

White a is nonsense, you think you are taking black's 2nd eye and going to attack that tank with a tennis ball? Both players should play big moves in the corners.

Author: illluck [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:29 am ]

Post subject: Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

What about this 10 stone placement?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X X X . X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If I want to win with 9 stones, probably will go with something like the below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:36 am ]
Post subject:
illluck wrote: If I want to win with 9 stones, probably will go with something like the below: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Hi illluck, what's your theory that your above placement gives you a better chance against a pro than the normal star-point placement ? Luckily, this hypothesis is testable!

Author:	oca [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
Uberdude wrote: White a is nonsense, you think you are taking black's 2nd eye and going to attack that tank with a tennis ball? Both players should play big moves in the corners. In the past, I used to destroy very big walls with only a small ball but... the game was arkanoid... not go... Attachment: arkanoid.png [ 27.58 KiB \| Viewed 10458 times ]

Author:	illluck [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: Hi illluck, what's your theory that your above placement gives you a better chance against a pro than the normal star-point placement ? Luckily, this hypothesis is testable! My idea is that the board here is a bit more settled in most of the area compared to a normal placement where there are more places for white to play and also more chances for interactions between areas. I suspect my placement is less optimal in the sense that perfect play would probably result in a lower winning margin than the traditional placement, but could be easier for black to try to simplify the game. Also, I play sansan regularly in my games so I'm just more familiar with them compared to hoshi or komoku. Edit: Oh, Ed, didn't see your question about that dumpling. My feeling is around 3 stones as it seems similar to a ponnuki (the proverbial 30 points) but potentially somewhat worse due to its lack of eyeshape.

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:52 am ]
Post subject:
Hi illluck, thanks, actually my question about your hypothesis was semi-rhetorical; sorry. Curious: how much experience have you had with handi games against pros (9 stones or otherwise) ? Do you happen to know your approximate level relative to pro (how many handi stones from pro) ?

Author:	dfunkt [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
I played a handicap game once and gave my opponent 2 moves for each of my moves for my first 9 turns. It made an interesting game even though he was much weaker.

Author:	illluck [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
I've never actually played a pro. I think the strongest player I played was in viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5848. He is a mid to strong Tygem 9d, and I seem to remember him stating that he's probably about 2-3 stones away from top pros. This would suggest 9 stones to be approximately the handicap where I would have a chance against pros. I think I'm probably around KGS 2-3d nowadays (potentially slightly weaker than when I played that game T.T), which also suggests that 9 stones is probably not too far off against pros. However, that does not take into account my inability to play handicap games as black (see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9270). My opponent is about KGS 6d (and I think my previous record against him is 1/0 at even games) and I still lost the game. So I suspect that in actuality my chances against pros will be pretty slim at even 9 stones.

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:21 am ]
Post subject:
dfunkt wrote: gave my opponent 2 moves for each of my moves for my first 9 turns. You guys were wise; we tried variations where it was two B moves for each W move, forever. That was too much. ( We also very quickly found out that four B moves per W move meant lots of B ponnukis and zero W stones on the board. ) Eventually we adjusted to every 4 or 5 B moves, B could go twice in a row -- that was manageable. W had to adopt new strategies, too, it was interesting. For example: life-and-death, ladders, ko, even simple cuts, etc., all change their meanings -- both B and W must read ahead of the up-coming double-B move.

Author:	oca [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
Just tryied against smartgo, what weird game...

Author:	DrStraw [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
In the original position I think I would just ignore it. Remembering that W is 9 ranks stronger it is safe to assume that he can select joseki in each corner which will give him territory and not risk any ladders. Let B have the outside and the 10 stones will end up useless in the middle of his territory.

Author:	DrStraw [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
illluck wrote: I've never actually played a pro. I think the strongest player I played was in viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5848. He is a mid to strong Tygem 9d, and I seem to remember him stating that he's probably about 2-3 stones away from top pros. This would suggest 9 stones to be approximately the handicap where I would have a chance against pros. I think I'm probably around KGS 2-3d nowadays (potentially slightly weaker than when I played that game T.T), which also suggests that 9 stones is probably not too far off against pros. I think you are selling yourself short. It may be tough against a top pro but I think you can probably give a low-level pro a good game on a much lower handicap. I once beat Jimmy Cha on 4 stones and I have a KGS 3d account. I was about the same strength then as now. Of course, he didn't like it and completely wiped me off the board the next time we played, also on 4. I think he was 4 dan pro at the time.

Author:	oca [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
Another try with illluck's proposition I was a bit less confortable with that one... and don't understand why smartgo let me take is group at the end...

Author:	illluck [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
Oca, you need to try against a white which can give you 9 stones with traditional placement in order to get a feel of how each position works for you.

Author: logan [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:47 am ]

Post subject: Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

How about these two oca?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	illluck [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Edit: of course, the below is probably strictly better than the above: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	oca [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
illluck wrote: Oca, you need to try against a white which can give you 9 stones with traditional placement in order to get a feel of how each position works for you. I went to the same conclusion here is the standard nine stone (I let the 6.5 komi so that I have the same condition then with the two first game) so far that still big block in the center that was the more confortable for me (but it is 10 stones.. not 9) I feeled quite the same with your proposition and the standard one. very weird and

Author:	oca [ Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement
illluck wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I will call that one "the rotor" I like it very much and will play it next.

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