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Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14471		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  BlindGroup [ Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
This question relates to the recent post by Tapani about using influence (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14461). I'm at the same level and also struggle to use influence correctly.

Here is one example from today, starting at what was move 134 in the original game. I played white. Early in the game, I made a simple mistake in the upper left, losing my stones. However, I ended up with some central influence as compensation. So, I decided to play for the center. I pressed my opponent down on the bottom, forced him to let me build another wall on the top right by taking away his corner. By this point, I figure I should have the game in the bag. Even if I ignore the fact that the bottom right is not secure, I should have enough points in my moyo to win... If only I could have protected my moyo...

I think I went wrong at move 20 in the SGF, but my question is more general. Is there a way to simplify these defenses? Perhaps a way to break the moyo into parts and think about the moves needed by each section? Right now, I feel that defending these invasions is so complicated that I have trouble keeping track of everything in the game. I can almost always go back afterwards and find a few moves that would have saved the game. But I'm struggling to avoid the mistakes in the game. In my experience in other areas, this result usually means I'm not breaking the problem into sufficiently small pieces.



Attachments:
2017-08-20 me vs IGS 10k+.sgf [1.69 KiB]
Downloaded 669 times
Author:  Knotwilg [ Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
Author:  BlindGroup [ Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
Knotwilg wrote:


Knotwilg, thank you. This is very thorough. It's going to take me some time to go through all of it, but you've more than answered my question!
Author:  Kirby [ Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
I think you did a decent job fighting.

One thing that sticks out to me is this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | O X O O X . X . . . . O . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O . . , O . X X . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X X . . . O O X . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X O . X O X X . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . W X O . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X O X . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Perhaps this instead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | O X O O X . X . . . . O . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O . . , O . X X . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X X . . . O O X . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X O . X O X X . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X O . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X O X . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The ladder doesn't seem to work for black.

I suppose if black gets the top stones, he has a territorial lead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . 8 . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | O X O O X . X 5 6 7 9 O . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O 4 3 , O . X X . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X X 2 1 . O O X . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X O . X O X X . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X O . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X O X . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But maybe you can take sente and go for the corner:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . 8 . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | O X O O X . X 5 6 7 9 O . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O 4 3 , O . X X . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X X 2 1 . O O X . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X O . X O X X . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X O . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X O X . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Knotwilg [ Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
Kirby wrote:

But maybe you can take sente and go for the corner:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . 8 . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | O X O O X . X 5 6 7 9 O . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O 4 3 , O . X X . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X X X 2 1 . O O X . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X O . X O X X . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . O O X O . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X O . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X O X . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



That's a great sacrifice strategy Kirby!
Author:  Tapani [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
As BlindGroup already mentioned, I am struggling with the same kind of problem using influence. Maybe it is a natural phase in a go player growing up, we are at the same level after all.

This is more a question to the stronger players here - my gut feel in the game posted would be to go after the triangle marked stones? Chances are, that's how I would play it in an online game with short-ish time control.

Does my gut feel need adjusting?

Attachment:
2017-08-20_BG_modified.sgf [1.07 KiB]
Downloaded 608 times


EDIT: Is white really alive top right? Black T15 looks *really* scary ...
Author:  Schachus [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Making use of influence: Protecting a moyo
good question Tapani. Yes, that should be alive(varaiations hidden)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . . . . . . O X O O . 4 |
$$ | O X O O X . X . . . . O . O X X O 6 3 |
$$ | . O X O X . O . . , O . X X . X O 5 2 |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . O O X . O X O O 1 |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . X O X X . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


4 is a nice tesuji you can remember(not 4 at 6, because 5 at 4 would make trouble).
In case of 3 at 4, white can also live:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 7 at 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . . . . . . O X O O c 3 |
$$ | O X O O X . X . . . . O . O X X O 4 b |
$$ | . O X O X . O . . , O . X X . X O . 2 |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . O O X . O X O O 1 |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . X O X X . X . X X a |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


a,b miai(more or less, white should answer a at c and not b to prevent seki). Black can make gote seki by playing.
Probably here white can take with 4 at a more efficiently, because that threatens a connection, but this would work without that connection

3 at 6 doesnt work either:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . . . . . . O X O O 4 6 |
$$ | O X O O X . X . . . . O . O X X O 3 5 |
$$ | . O X O X . O . . , O . X X . X O . 2 |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . O O X . O X O O 1 |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . X O X X . X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O O O O O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , X O X X O O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X X X O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X X . . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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