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Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17162 |
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Author: | xela [ Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
I'm re-reading 200 Endgame Problems. The first time round, many years ago, I went through it with a "spot the key move" attitude, and thought it was pretty easy. This time round, I'm setting the bar higher in terms of understanding why the key move is good, and seeing more of the variations, and I'm finding it much more challenging. Great to have a book that works on more than one level! I wonder if Shirae is trying to nudge us in the direction of effortful practice, in the same way that JF makes explicit in his variation-free Genjo-Chitoku? Anyway, enough waffling. I'd like to take a dozen or so problems from the book and dig deeper, find the insights that aren't in the two solution diagrams per problem that you get. First up is part 1 problem 13. Summary of book solution What's not discussed is this alternative move, a shape which appears as the solution to some later problems. What is white's reply to ![]() |
Author: | Gomoto [ Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
White's reply: |
Author: | xela [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Yes, that's it. Took me some effort to understand why it's actually a good result for white. Next up, part 1 problem 30. This is what not to do: Here's the book solution: Now it might not be obvious at a glance that the solution is actually better than the ordinary moves. (At least, it wasn't obvious to me.) So this is a good counting exercise: how many points has black gained in the book solution compared with the ordinary moves? |
Author: | Gomoto [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:57 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Black gains ... |
Author: | jlt [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
@Gomoto: I think that Black gains more than that, because to capture the three stones, White has to take gote, but on the other hand Black can also take gote to save his three stones? |
Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
jlt wrote: @Gomoto: I think that Black gains more than that, because to capture the three stones, White has to take gote, but on the other hand Black can also take gote to save his three stones? My understanding in this situation is that... I'm bad at endgame calculations, so I'd be interested in having my analysis corrected, if there are errors. |
Author: | jlt [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Since I didn't study endgame theory seriously, it would be a miracle if my answer was correct, but here it is anyway. At least one of us is wrong. |
Author: | Gomoto [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
I am a simple man. With the optimal answer black gains at least 1 point. And there is the additional potential for even more gains (Related to the rest of the board position.) That is enough endgame theory for my needs ![]() |
Author: | Tryss [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
In pure area scoring, Black only gain sente |
Author: | xela [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Gomoto wrote: That is enough endgame theory for my needs :-) Well, I'm posting these because I'm interested in endgame theory and want to learn more :-) It's not that I need more endgame theory though, what I really need is to not lose all those middlegame fights, but that's a different conversation... So for this one I get the same as Kirby. Of course that doesn't mean I'm correct, I'm still learning this stuff too. My first impression of jlt's analysis was that in the 1-2-3 sequences, move 1 reverses. So the WWW and BB diagrams should never happen with correct play. It's the same as the basic hane-connect: You'd never analyse the following position: because for black to play 1 and then abandon the position is a loss for black. If black 1 goes on the board and both players are making the best moves, then you'll always see 1-2-3 as a unit. But actually, jlt's diagrams are not quite the same thing, because the 1-2 exchanges there don't actually make the position worse for the first player, they just make the position no better. I think that in a whole-board position where the other moves are small enough that 1 is the best local move, then 2 would be sente, which is why you'd still treat 1-2-3 as a unit for counting purposes (although in practice you could play 1, leave it alone for a while, then do 2-3 later). So not technically a "reverse", but same effect. I haven't read it yet, but I believe Robert Jasiek's Endgame 3 has some theory on "long sequences" which goes into this in more depth. And someone please tell me if I'm overthinking this. |
Author: | Shaddy [ Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
You could actually analyze that position, xela; it is useful to know sometimes how much a lossy ko threat loses. |
Author: | RobertJasiek [ Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
xela wrote: because for black to play 1 and then abandon the position is a loss for black. [...] I haven't read it yet, but I believe Robert Jasiek's Endgame 3 has some theory on "long sequences" which goes into this in more depth. See https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=252422#p252422 |
Author: | jlt [ Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Still confused. Well, I should really read some endgame books. I am currently working on tesuji but after that I should learn to count. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:12 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Simple mistake way White has 6 points to baseline. Tesuji variation White has 0 or 6 points depending who gets the gote. So currently worth 3. Black has 1 extra from throw in. So white net 3-1=2. 6-2=4. Black gained 4 points from the tesuji endgame. |
Author: | Kirby [ Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
jlt wrote: Since I didn't study endgame theory seriously, it would be a miracle if my answer was correct, but here it is anyway. At least one of us is wrong. I have a little more confidence now that some other folks also got the same answer, so I'll give my interpretation as to why I have a different answer than this one: As usual, I'm open to critique in this analysis. |
Author: | Vesa [ Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
After watching the London New Year Tournament board 1 broadcasts in YouTube, I still wonder how these endgame discussions and the real games are so far apart. Cheers, Vesa |
Author: | xela [ Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Wow, that got more interesting than I expected! Next up, part 1 problem 53. I think this is easier, but I'm posting it because of a cute variation. And of course I could be wrong, there might be hidden depth here too. Book solution: Question 1: how can white make ko? Question 2: instead of ![]() |
Author: | jlt [ Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Ko: Obviously many moves other than ![]() |
Author: | xela [ Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Yes, that's the ![]() White can also resist this way, perhaps not the best reply but it amuses me that the throw-in no longer works: |
Author: | xela [ Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Behind the scenes of some endgame tesuji |
Next, problems 49 and 50 of part 1 are a nice pair for practising your counting. In both cases:
![]() The book tells us which is best but doesn't do the counting. And the book also has this cute story about the name "monkey jump". |
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