Life In 19x19 :: some fundamental questions

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some fundamental questions http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2144	Page 1 of 1

Author: entropi [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:02 am ]

Post subject: some fundamental questions

Hi all.

Some questions about the fundamentals.

Important to note, I am not asking for a super duper tesuji that might exist for these specific positions but I am asking for the normal moves (locally of course), which should intuitively be considered first.

A short reasoning relying on the basics (I mean not based on deep reading but more like e.g. this move increases whites liberties, it gives black the opportunity to play at the head of two stones, etc etc) would be nice.

What is the normal move for answering :w1:

? (It might be the case that the most intuitive move doesn't work in this specific situation. Could you then please elaborate a little bit why?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What about this (e.g. could be followed by a cross-cut at a)?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And and how should white continue if black plays this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I dont feel good about white "a" because of black "b" but I don't see another obvious sequence for white to separate blacks position (maybe white "c", looks like bad shape but...)

And how to continue if white-a black-b exchange does in fact occur?

I know these questions are basic things that might be boring for stronger players, but without having clear answers to these kind of things, I don't think one can expect much improvement. That's why I am asking.
Again, I am not asking for unexpected strange tesujis, just some simple comments about the moves that would intuitively first be considered by strong players.

Thanks in advance for eventual answers.
Cheers,

Author: DrStraw [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:17 am ]

Post subject: Re: some fundamental questions

IYour assessment of the last diagram is good. If B's single stone on the right can be isolated then this is probably the best way to play. Black ends up with a lot of territory and W still needs another move to connect his stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, if the B stones is not isolated, as below, then this would not be the best move. Extending to the middle to keep W separated is better. He can answer a with b or c with d.
This would not be as good if the stone were isolated because W can play a and then either cap or pincer the single stone depending on the overall position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . d X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author: Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:56 am ]

Post subject: Re: some fundamental questions

Prior to actually reading where stones might be placed, lets see if we can establish where we generally want them to be. Black has a 3-5 stone, a 4-4 stone, and a 4-6 stone. The latter two are high stones; the first is a bit high and a bit low. When 2-1/2 stones of a 3-stone group are high, we know that it should be looking at going toward the center.

So even before white's latest stone is played, we know that black wants a stone somewhere in the shaded area:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . ? ? X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When white plays his latest, its shock waves compress the area to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR Q10 Q12 } $$ { LN R13 T10 } $$ { LN P13 N10 }[/go]

From there, it is just a matter of reading to decide which of the shaded spots black should play in.

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Also, a little theory about contact moves, from the point of view of the person who plays them: there is a proverb that says "attach to strong stones, not weak stones". The logic behind this is that, when you attach to a stone, your opponent will probably defend, thereby making it stronger. It is obviously a bad idea to encourage your opponent to make a weak stone stronger, but often there is little lost in encouraging him to make a strong stone stronger. It can result in over-concentration of strength.

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If we combine the two ideas mentioned above, we can see that white's move is a deflecting play. He wants to disrupt your normal flow, and divert it westward. In doing so he hopes to isolate your R10 stone. It costs him very little to do so because he is attaching to a strong stone.

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BTW, lets do a little archeological explorataion. The only reason that he can do a diverting play successfully is because a move to the west, such as P14 or O14, does not harm him. His stones on the upper side are strong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ { AR N11 N15 } $$ { LN K16 O16 }[/go]

Lets weaken white a little by removing a two stones, 1 white, 1 black - marked with shading - and see how it looks:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O ? . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . a . ? . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now the circled black stone is threatening something like 'a'.

It he is already too strong to be easily threatened, this suggests that the real source of your problem is a move or two back.

As a general rule, when white makes the low 1-space approach to a black star point stone, and there are no other stones nearby, kicking is a bad idea. Usually, black needs a stone in the shaded areas for it to be practical.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? . 1 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . ? ? ? ? . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For details, see my post on when to kick: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 322#p36322

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In summary, a theoretical description of what is happening is this: You kicked prematurely, leading him to quickly form a strong group up top. He then deflects your group in that direction, knowing that there is little downside in doing so. Having defected your group impotently westward, he will then try to isolate and attack your R10 stone.
If you don't kick at the wrong time, he can't do this.

Author: Bill Spight [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:19 am ]

Post subject: Re: some fundamental questions

entropi wrote:

It is apparent that you know those: the two hane and the two nobi.

Quote:

A short reasoning relying on the basics (I mean not based on deep reading but more like e.g. this move increases whites liberties, it gives black the opportunity to play at the head of two stones, etc etc) would be nice.

OK.

However, attachments can be quite tactical. General principles may not be the best guide.

Quote:

What is the normal move for answering :w1:

? (It might be the case that the most intuitive move doesn't work in this specific situation. Could you then please elaborate a little bit why?)

What's normal? :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c X b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e 1 d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First impressions:

Why did Black play the kick? It strengthens White and leaves a weakness at "a".

Why did White play the attachment? Contact fights generally strengthen both sides, but Black is weak and White is already strong.

Without the kick, "b" would be too passive. However, in this case it covers the weakness at "a". Perhaps we can consider it a refutation of :w1:

Without the kick, "c" is strong. It keeps the White stones separated, breaking a sector line. Also, the normal continuation for White is "d", which allows Black to play at "b", anyway. Therefore, I think that maybe White should jump in at "a" next. That leads to complications, OC.

"d" and "e" look attractive, because usually the player with weaknesses seeks complications. However, playing around with those moves, it seems to me that White normally gets to play at "b" sooner or later, and that leaves aji for a later White play at "a".

Since "b" seems to be the key point, I think that it is fine to go ahead and play it right away.

Quote:

What about this (e.g. could be followed by a cross-cut at a)?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not to worry about the crosscut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now White is very busy.

Quote:

And and how should white continue if black plays this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If W-a, B-b, hane at the head of two stones. If W-c, again B-b, and White will have trouble avoiding bad shape. "b" looks like the key point. "d" may also be playable.

Quote:

And how to continue if white-a black-b exchange does in fact occur?

Take out a gun and end your misery. Harakiri is also an option.

Author:	Numsgil [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: some fundamental questions
entropi wrote: Hi all. Some questions about the fundamentals. Important to note, I am not asking for a super duper tesuji that might exist for these specific positions but I am asking for the normal moves (locally of course), which should intuitively be considered first. A short reasoning relying on the basics (I mean not based on deep reading but more like e.g. this move increases whites liberties, it gives black the opportunity to play at the head of two stones, etc etc) would be nice. What is the normal move for answering ? (It might be the case that the most intuitive move doesn't work in this specific situation. Could you then please elaborate a little bit why?) Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] When responding to an attachment against a lone stone with a lone stone, your choice is either extending or haning. Here are the 'rules': 1. Haning is preferred unless you've read out that it doesn't work. 2. If you hane, hane on the 'outside'. 'Outside' is a nebulous idea, but basically you don't want to try and break the link of the stone to its friends (that would be piecemeal and small), and you want to expand the sphere of your own stones (so don't back down). 3. If the choice is between the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th line chose the higher line. If it's a choice between 5th line and 4th line or 3rd line, prefer to stay within the first 4 lines, unless you really want the outside influence. It's normally a loss locally. If you can get your opponent to push you along the 4th line, for instance, that's probably good for you. If both choices are higher than the first four lines, there's no preference and you should read both out. 4. Prefer to keep your stones connected over being separated (don't create new groups if you don't have to). This is talked about in Contact Fights. I might be forgetting some of the rules, too. In the position you present, I think the 'fundamental' response would be 1 below. You don't want to hane on the 5th line, even though that would be 'outside', because you'd end up pushing him along the 4th line. In-place extending in either direction would be too slow. This removes a liberty from white's stone, and white is now really weak locally. Haning low also keeps all of black's stones connected (white can maybe cut off a black stone if he really wants to, but black can use it as a sacrifice if he wants to and improve his position). Fighting should favor black whatever happens. Not to say that 1 is the best move. Or even a good move, given the position (I won't try to read it out). Just that it should be the first gut reaction you have and the first thing you read out to see if it works. If it does, you probably don't need to read any other lines out. It gets gnarly when white cross cuts, but cross cuts have nice rules, too. The default response to the cross cut would be to extend along the 3rd line from the 3rd line stone, but that doesn't take in to account black's surrounding position at all so I'm not sure if it's correct. White will then probably atari to build outside strength, and black gets to keep most of his territory, which seems like a fair exchange given the initial strength of black (though white can still invade at the 3-3 I'm pretty sure). I think that's the question you were asking, yeah? Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 White has influence, black has territory $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 2 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Thunkd [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: some fundamental questions
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Prior to actually reading where stones might be placed, lets see if we can establish where we generally want them to be. I found your post to be incredibly helpful. It really helped me understand the dynamics of the situation. Please do that more.

Author:	entropi [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: some fundamental questions
Numsgil wrote: I think that's the question you were asking, yeah? Exactly! Thanks for the answer. I didn't go through your interpretations of the rules in that specific situation but the rules themselves look quite promising. I know many people dislike these kind of rules and want to rely solely on reading. I like these rules because they help in complex situations to indicate what to read, even though they obviously cannot replace reading. Would you recommend this "contact fight" software? The fact that you refer to it already gives an indication of your opinion, but could you please shortly mention about pros and cons?

Author:	daal [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: some fundamental questions
entropi wrote: ...I like these rules because they help in complex situations to indicate what to read, even though they obviously cannot replace reading... ...Would you recommend this "contact fight" software? ... If you like guidelines, this software is surely for you. It takes you through 4 levels of contact principles, each building upon the previous level: Elementary, Novice, Intermediate and Advanced. The presentation is excellent. You are first taught the principles and are then given an opportunity to practice them individually. Afterwards there is a level test which is followed by several games in which you are asked to choose appropriate moves based on the contact rules of that level. If your move ignores a contact rule, you are told which mistake you made. In general, Wilcox goes to great lengths to explain his reasoning, and his explanations are clear and extremely well illustrated. Wilcox's aim is surely not to offer a substitute for reading, but rather to refine and develop one's basic instinct. While the concept might cause EdLee or Kirby to have a conniption fit, I found the software to be useful, interesting and also entertaining.

Author:	Numsgil [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: some fundamental questions
entropi wrote: Would you recommend this "contact fight" software? The fact that you refer to it already gives an indication of your opinion, but could you please shortly mention about pros and cons? Yes, whole heartedly. All three products Wilcox has (There's also 'Sector Fights' and a PDF book called 'EZ-GO') are good and really helped make the game less mysterious. If nothing else you have a mental framework to approach board positions with (well, this group is in danger, so I can lean on these stones here, which white will respond to like this because of contact rules...). I've gone through all Wilcox's stuff, and though I'm still pretty terrible at go still it's usually some reading mistake that breaks me, or I get over greedy and try to kill everything, or I don't follow one of the rules, etc. As far as cons, he uses non-standard terms for things (all English terms. He avoids Japanese terms, even common ones like hane). But he explains every term he uses with diagrams and board positions so it's not as bad as it could be. And it's tempting after reading his stuff to just be like 'durr I'll move here without reading it out cause the rule says to', so you really have to discipline yourself not to do that and read things out first. And there are some blow-by-blow games at the end of each section where you guess the next move, and a few quizes, but other than that there aren't many problems. So some ideas are mentioned in passing on a page but not really adequately explored in problem form. Also, it's presented in a beginner-intermediate-advanced framework. You really have to do the beginner sections to know what he's talking about in later sections, but the beginner section is mostly aimed at DDK (assumes no reading, some of the quizes are common joseki) so if you're stronger you'll have to pretend like you're a DDK and work through the material that way. And it makes it hard if you want to remember something about moyos, for instance, since then you have to check in the 3-4 different places he talked about moyos. But on the whole I really liked it. It's as close in style to a proper textbook as I've found for Go, where the really really fundamental properties of the game are explained. Most other works seem to assume the reader knows this stuff beforehand. It doesn't match everyone's learning style, but for engineering-minded people like me there aren't a whole lot of works like this for go. Compare 'Attack and Defense' with 'Sector Fights', for instance, and 'Sector Fights' is way more thorough and actionable in your real games. Another good book along the same vein as Wilcox's stuff is Counting Liberties And Winning Capturing Races, which presents liberty counting rules for various types of capturing races. I lost a game just yesterday because I flubbed rules from that one.

Author:	entropi [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: some fundamental questions
Is the link http://webpages.charter.net/suewilcox/Contact.htm still active? Before sending any money over paypal, I tried to send an e-mail to check whether it is still available and to ask him how to get the software, but I did not get any response. Does anyone know any other source to download it? (I obviously don't mean software piracy)

Author:	Numsgil [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: some fundamental questions
He answered his email when I got it a few months back. He might be on vacation or whatever. He physically emails stuff to you; it's not an automatic process. So yeah, hold off sending money until you get a response.

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