Thanks! I spent some time trying to work this out before posting, but I don't know that I would have ever come up with those positions. This was very helpful!
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| 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2302 |
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| Author: | Apoah [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Could someone please explain black's mistake at move 7 and how white should best respond? |
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| Author: | amnal [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Apoah wrote: Could someone please explain black's mistake at move 7 and how white should best respond? First problem: Black is too aggressive. He can't descend if white descends, as this cut is too powerful. So black's original strategy of cutting white has failed, and black has holes in his position. edit: I haven't shown why white 4 works, but I'll leave this as an exercise. As a hint, whatever black plays now, white should be able to capture something and connect 4 to the corner. BUT: This is fairly okay for black. His original plan was a bad one, but he has somewhat saved the day. This is quite livable for him, though there are usually better ways to accomplish the same thing (just blocking the other way in the first place, for instance). Black can still seal white in, so white has hardly destroyed black's position. ALSO: White's correct response is probably this way. It doesn't look like white has gained a lot from black's mistake, but actually he has, becuase black's push at 1 is clearly aji keshi - black didn't need or want to play here, and there might normally be a better play later. This way, white clearly makes a profit over the joseki line. Black could also play 7 at 8 sometimes, I think, but this starts a difficult fight and is not generally a good idea. People often think that the first way is a strong punishment for white, but as the second diagram shows, this is not really the case - black is fine if he realises his mistake. The best way for white is to calmly take advantage of black's small slip, and be happy to have removed aji later in the game. |
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| Author: | Apoah [ Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Thanks! I spent some time trying to work this out before posting, but I don't know that I would have ever come up with those positions. This was very helpful!
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| Author: | Bantari [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Apoah wrote: Could someone please explain black's mistake at move 7 and how white should best respond? http://www.bantari.net/go/bloopers/page-002.php Hope this helps. |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Is there something fundamental about this position that says 'black is screwed'? Or do you have to read it out to its end in the dozens of variations? If we look at it strictly in this position, without adding stones or doing reading, we see that white is occupying a shape point for black, and black has 4 liberties and 2 liberties and white has 4 liberties and 2 liberties. White has 4-8 points of territory in the corner. White is enclosed (weakly) in the corner, and black is sandwiched between a weak side white group and a weak central white stone. It's black's sente to move. From this description alone it sounds like a fairly even fight still. White is more stable, black has a bit of bad shape, but black has sente. Like, if we move everything up and over a line, is this still a bad exchange for black? |
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| Author: | illluck [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Just a note: I believe amnal's response is the current opinion. Bantari's discussion was considered to be current, but recently (well, comparatively recently) it was judged that the descent gave too good a result to black a lot of the time (amnal's post covers it). @Numsgil: in your first diagram black can't get a good result - I (think I) can read out all variations and none work for black. If you move it diagonally I can't read out everything anymore (I think white is still fine, but not sure). The reason is mostly due to moving one line towards the direction of black hane. If it is as below then black still can't get a good result as far as I can tell. |
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| Author: | amnal [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Numsgil wrote: Is there something fundamental about this position that says 'black is screwed'? Or do you have to read it out to its end in the dozens of variations? If we look at it strictly in this position, without adding stones or doing reading, we see that white is occupying a shape point for black, and black has 4 liberties and 2 liberties and white has 4 liberties and 2 liberties. White has 4-8 points of territory in the corner. White is enclosed (weakly) in the corner, and black is sandwiched between a weak side white group and a weak central white stone. It's black's sente to move. From this description alone it sounds like a fairly even fight still. White is more stable, black has a bit of bad shape, but black has sente. No matter what black does, white will capture something - the fight isn't even in this sense. If black saves 1, white captures the 3 stones with the move I added at 6. If black saves the three, white clearly captures stone 1. EDIT: Bantari's site has the sequences showing how black is doomed, there are not very many variations. Quote: Like, if we move everything up and over a line, is this still a bad exchange for black? Now it is not obviously so bad for black, because white has no move to immediately capture something. For instance: This 6 doesn't smash 1 against the side in an easy way like before, so it isn't clear what will happen. Also, apparently I've subsumed and put forward relatively new knowledge on the position. I'd like to stress that the important thing is knowing why the various moves are wrong, and that either 'punishment' is going to realistically be equally good in a real game. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
@numsgil: black and white each have stones with two liberties, but only one of them requires an immediate defense in order to live. Not sure if that requires too much reading to be fundamental the way you're using the term. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Numsgil wrote: Is there something fundamental about this position that says 'black is screwed'? ... Almost. A 3-stone wall wants to go to 'a' or 'b' or nearby. When white has 'a' completely out of reach with his three stones, black now wants 'b' twice as much: ...then the marked white stone screws black's chances of decent shape. |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Okay, I see. White can capture black's original hane in a Cathedral (also called an 'edge crush' in Wilcox's stuff. Not sure if it has other names). So black's stone is in a sort of 'virtual' atari. Likewise, there's a similar edge pattern for black's 3 stones amnal pointed out. So black's 3 stones are also in a sort of virtual atari also. If white gets to play the circled stone, black can't escape dying. Since black can't defend both 'virtual' ataris at once, he's in a bad position. This is a complicated version of a double atari basically. I don't mind thinking of the edge crush ('cathedral' feels like a weird term) as 'fundamental' because it turns up fairly often and it's an easy pattern to recognize and read out (though I admit I missed it in this context). Same with the 1st and 2nd line versions of the edge patterns. Like a ladder it doesn't branch into meaningful variations, so I don't consider it reading necessarily. It either works on the main line or it doesn't at all. And really the only 'gotcha' is to make sure that the 'roof' has at least 3 liberties. Otherwise, unless there's random stones thrown in, the result is a foregone conclusion. Is the pattern that captures the 3 stone black string a similar recurring pattern? It's not immediately obvious (to me) that black is captured unless you read it out. When people see this, do they go 'ah, I've seen this before, black should die, let's see if it works here...' or do they go 'bleh, what is this? Can black escape? Let me read out a few lines of resistance'? Depending on how others think about go this may or may not be a meaningful question But basically there are short patterns that I memorize with known outcomes. The edge crush is one, same as the other edge patterns on sensei's. Is there a similar common 4th line pattern? It seems to have similar characteristics.
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| Author: | amnal [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Numsgil wrote: Okay, I see. White can capture black's original hane in a Cathedral (also called an 'edge crush' in Wilcox's stuff. Not sure if it has other names). So black's stone is in a sort of 'virtual' atari. Likewise, there's a similar edge pattern for black's 3 stones amnal pointed out. So black's 3 stones are also in a sort of virtual atari also. If white gets to play the circled stone, black can't escape dying. Since black can't defend both 'virtual' ataris at once, he's in a bad position. This is a complicated version of a double atari basically. I don't mind thinking of the edge crush ('cathedral' feels like a weird term) as 'fundamental' because it turns up fairly often and it's an easy pattern to recognize and read out (though I admit I missed it in this context). Same with the 1st and 2nd line versions of the edge patterns. Like a ladder it doesn't branch into meaningful variations, so I don't consider it reading necessarily. It either works on the main line or it doesn't at all. And really the only 'gotcha' is to make sure that the 'roof' has at least 3 liberties. Otherwise, unless there's random stones thrown in, the result is a foregone conclusion. Is the pattern that captures the 3 stone black string a similar recurring pattern? It's not immediately obvious (to me) that black is captured unless you read it out. When people see this, do they go 'ah, I've seen this before, black should die, let's see if it works here...' or do they go 'bleh, what is this? Can black escape? Let me read out a few lines of resistance'? Depending on how others think about go this may or may not be a meaningful question But basically there are short patterns that I memorize with known outcomes. The edge crush is one, same as the other edge patterns on sensei's. Is there a similar common 4th line pattern? It seems to have similar characteristics.There is no similar 4th line pattern, in that it is much harder to say 'black's stone cannot escape. But it may be possible to kill it. As an example, there is this well known joseki: Here, white's 6 depends upon a ladder. If you don't know this sequence, it's interesting to look it up. Black's 7 is a complex way to maximise white's aji. It is clearly an example of the 4th line smash down, if such a thing exists. Here, it is clearly heavily dependent on the surrounding conditions, but this is my point - it always is. 5 is a tesuji to maximise liberties. It is often seen in a 4th line smash. The sequence concludes something like this. If black has the ladder to the bottom right *or* middle left, he will now save the smashed-down stones by capturing white's two (can you see why?). If he doesn't, white captures his stones, but he gets some aji out of it. Things to note are: - White could only capture by leaving cutting points - White could only capture because of the exact arrangement of neighbouring stones, it is far more dependent on these than the 3rd line version - Black could spread out a long way on the second line before being captured. In the corner, this makes shortage of liberties for white's group here a real problem, such as in the positions suggested above where black might be able to slide into the corner or similar even if the smash down works.. So, if white is strong, in general he can have a good go at capturing black's cutting stone and there isn't much black can do about it. But it is not very clear cut like the 3rd line version. EDIT: To use an example position from earlier in this thread: What do you think will happen now? Clearly there are several vital points (the xs) which could be important, and white cannot play them all. So there is a lot of reading to see if the capture will work, even in a fairly simple position. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Really? How come? Quote: When white has 'a' completely out of reach with his three stones, black now wants 'b' twice as much: ...then the marked white stone screws black's chances of decent shape.
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Numsgil wrote: Is the pattern that captures the 3 stone black string a similar recurring pattern? It's not immediately obvious (to me) that black is captured unless you read it out. When people see this, do they go 'ah, I've seen this before, black should die, let's see if it works here...' or do they go 'bleh, what is this? Can black escape? Let me read out a few lines of resistance'? In my experience, as one gets stronger, they are able to say the former to more and more shapes. For instance, to a total beginner, this shape can be rather baffling: But then, pros can recognize very complicated (for us) life and death issues in a split second, and get it correct. So it all depends on your individual skill level / experience. For me, black's stones seem dead rather obviously, and I would only take a couple of seconds in a real game to declare black dead and look away. But to others, this position seems like something straight out of the Igo Hatsuyoron, and they probably won't be able to read it out no matter how much time you give them. I assume you are somewhere in the middle .
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Dusk Eagle wrote: For me, black's stones seem dead rather obviously, and I would only take a couple of seconds in a real game to declare black dead and look away. But to others, this position seems like something straight out of the Igo Hatsuyoron, and they probably won't be able to read it out no matter how much time you give them. I assume you are somewhere in the middle .Yeah... Just to be very explicit, this is my exact thought process. I'm literally leaving nothing out, dead ends and all. Every stone and sequence is exactly as far as I read, and what I read. I'd be interested in how this compares to others' thought processes about this position. Specifically if stronger players read this out less far, or don't read out some of the later variations, or if there are other tricky plays to think through, and in what order they're thought through. (I guess this is a sort of stream-of-consciousness Malkovich for a specific position). |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Well, I don't like  in your first diagram, but I guess that's slightly off topic. I would say I read (past tense) all that out, but that it takes only a few seconds to see it all, while I imagine you spent quite a bit of time just getting the diagrams to work . The first time I saw the shape, I spent a bit longer looking at it, whereas if I were to see that in a game now I really don't even need to read anything to declare black dead (but I quickly read (present tense) it anyway).
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Numsgil wrote: This way black just crushes against the edge Monkey jump along the first line gets black's stones out, but it doesn't gain eyes or liberties usually (so I don't read it out at all). Oh, but considering it is fun--I'd never even considered the monkey jump, and if I'm right, the correct response is a delightfully funny looking move. Maybe there's another sequence where you run across to the right depending on the outside area, but I don't think any of a-d work for White. and then you get even more sillier problems like this: |
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| Author: | daal [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Apoah wrote: I've been playing a good deal of blitz the last few months, and it seems that about every 5 games an opponent will play 7. I make this face  , play c18 and watch him squirm.Bantari wrote: I read your blooper page a few years ago and enjoyed it very much. I'm glad you haven't forgotten it  Any chance that you might add any more installments?
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
hyperpape wrote: Yep. It's a blind spot (I didn't really recognize it as a blind spot until I was making that post). Like in your last diagram there... After posting, I was thinking about the problem some more, and thought up to 4 and declared it a dead end. 5 makes it much less obviously a dead end, and deserves some more brow-furrowed reading. Like if I saw 5 in a game as white, I'd think, "Overplay! Oh, wait... How do I stop that. Can I still just block normally?" I'd probably make a hash of it as white. |
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| Author: | illluck [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
I didn't read the other moves, but 2 here works as far as I can tell (barring very rare situations where there are solid 1st line stones nearby). Similar thing here. I must admit that I never considered those two responses (and I probably miss many other possibilities as well), but I'm mostly confident for this particular situation that anything outside consideration will be very easy to refute. |
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| Author: | amnal [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 approach w/ 1 space pincer question |
Numsgil wrote: hyperpape wrote: Yep. It's a blind spot (I didn't really recognize it as a blind spot until I was making that post). Like in your last diagram there... After posting, I was thinking about the problem some more, and thought up to 4 and declared it a dead end. 5 makes it much less obviously a dead end, and deserves some more brow-furrowed reading. Like if I saw 5 in a game as white, I'd think, "Overplay! Oh, wait... How do I stop that. Can I still just block normally?" I'd probably make a hash of it as white. I'm not sure I'd call it a blind spot unless it worked for black. |
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