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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #1 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:00 pm 
Judan
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I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )

There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me.

Which move is better: 'a' or 'b' or 'c'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Problem 3 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . O , . X . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, the book is available from Kiseido.com

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #2 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Actually, the book only has 'a' or 'b'. I added 'c' to see if anyone would bite. :twisted:

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #3 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:13 pm 
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"a" for me. "b" is big, and "c" is interesting - I've seen that often as a ko threat, and sometimes as a probe, so maybe it's fine, but timing seems a bit odd.
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #4 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:19 pm 
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I'd play (a).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . O , . Y . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . W . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While white's corner group won't die, it can be pushed around and surrounded allowing black to build potential on the right and hurting white's potential on the top. After strengthening her group with :wc: white can attack :bt: and aim for an invasion at :et: later.

White (b) is just a reduction with no secondary or tertiary purpose and will become a target for black. White (c) is premature.
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Offline Tsuyoku
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:19 pm 
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I guess it's good that I wasn't fooled into thinking c was a good choice, but it's less good that I can't really choose between a and b. This is one of the things I'm really bad at.
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Offline The Pilgrim
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #6 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:01 pm 
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My feelings tell me to play "b" to flatten my opponent's moyo... But arguments for "a" seems good too... white would be in great danger if not playing "a"?
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #7 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:28 pm 
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'b' seems best, because black's moyo just gets too big if allowed another move by playing at 'a'. 'c' seems like more of an invasion than anything else, and I think reduction is better here. 'a' would be a nice move to get if I could get sente.


Edit:
Confidence level - low.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #8 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:04 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )

There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me.

Which move is better: 'a' or 'b' or 'c'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Problem 3 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . O , . X . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, the book is available from Kiseido.com

IMO, all three point can be played.
a look very tempting but black will grow his moyo so it sucks..
b look tempting but lose point a
c is a probe..can not be bad
edit: if i had to choose i will choose b

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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #9 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:25 pm 
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I'm convinced that A is the biggest move in a textbook but I couldn't bring myself to play that way. I tend to force an active game and I would pick B(or C) on first instinct.
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Offline BaghwanB
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #10 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:41 am 
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B for me. As others have said, A looks very nice, but that left side looks just too huge to let B get another finishing move in there. Hopefully, however B pans out for me (connect to top, make a group on the side, flail out to the middle, etc.) I'd end in sente and THEN get to put A in if it is still big.

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Offline emerus
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #11 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:26 pm 
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I believe that one black move on the left side wont solidify it. http://senseis.xmp.net/?InvadeAMoyoOneMoveBeforeItBecomesTerritory

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Problem 3 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . O , . X . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . X . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 X 6 X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . X . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is probably the heaviest way to do it but still, it would seem hard to kill whites stones.
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Offline Bantari
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #12 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:05 pm 
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I would play 'b' or somewhere therearound.

'a' is nice, with the Black being thin on the right and all, but not that urgent, I think. The only way 'a' would be playable would be if it was a strong sente against the right side. It might be, but I am too lazy to read it out, so my instinct tells me 'b'.

The influence of 'a' along the upper edge is sweet, but to bring it to fruition White will have to add at least one more stone there, and Black will still have tons of awesome aji so this is not all that efficient for me...

So, my plan would be to play 'b', either tread lightly and get a chance to play 'a' later, which will give White the edge. Or, if Black insists, make a life around 'b' and ruin Black moyo, let Black have 'a' or therearound, and still be better of in points game with sente.

But... I am sure any competent player would just play tengen and declare victory. ;)

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 3
Post #13 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Emerus had the first move for black correct...

A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Problem 3 wrong answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . O , . X . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White 3 is the deepest that white can invade, but black secures solid profit in the left with 4. However, white has failed to secure any profit with his moves.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Problem 3 correct answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . O , . X . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . 5 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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