It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:35 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Positional judgement
Post #1 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:28 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 281
Location: France
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 25
Rank: yes
Here's the position for a game, right after the first corner exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position at move 63, white to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . X . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X X X X X O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the review, my opponent and myself couldn't agree on the result.
What's your opinion on this position ? Better for black, for white, or even ?


Last edited by lorill on Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

This post by lorill was liked by: mitsun
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #2 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:47 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
black is better.
black is thicker.

reason:
they are pretty much equal but i dont like black aji in the middle.
i think white have to play there now orelse black will use that aji to get control of the middle.

again..it is my preference and other players might have different opinion and reason.
but i think most professionals will agree with my pick.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson


This post by Magicwand was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, lorill
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #3 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:04 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1449
Liked others: 1562
Was liked: 140
Rank: KGS 6k
GD Posts: 892
I also think black is better here. His stones seem to work better together.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go


This post by Phelan was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, lorill
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #4 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:04 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
I prefer black. Black has good aji in the center, I don't see any good way for white to prevent black from getting ahead in the center, even with sente.


This post by HermanHiddema was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, lorill
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #5 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:10 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 281
Location: France
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 25
Rank: yes
It looks like there's a consensus and I'm the one wrong, then. I'll have to think a bit more about it I guess.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #6 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:53 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
I also agree that Black is better.

But not by all that much. It is still a game, particularly at the kyu level.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: HermanHiddema
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #7 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:06 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2508
Liked others: 1304
Was liked: 1128
lorill wrote:
It looks like there's a consensus and I'm the one wrong, then. I'll have to think a bit more about it I guess.


Well, you're not alone. For me white was an easy pick. As white, I would play K4 and consider this a won game. I guess it goes to show that if you are strong enough to know how to use thickness, then you can recognize it's value.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.


This post by daal was liked by: lorill
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #8 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:26 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to play, prisoners - komi = 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . X . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O X X X X X . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Simplifying the position a bit, Black has ca. 8 and White has ca. 24. White has ca. 16 points more and sente. Black has ca. 5 stones more on the outside than White. This should be very easy for Black.

EDIT: The difference of prisoners (Black must have 7 more) and komi (I have guessed it as 7) appears to be 0. The other values are corrected accordingly.


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by: lorill
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #9 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:22 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 4 kyu
I agree, black is better :D
Well this game was a quick game (I'm the opponent of Lorill) and after the end of the corner sequence, I didn't felt bad but neither ahead. But I think white R14 corner approach wasn't good at all after this.

Edit : @Robertjasiek : what means "ca." ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #10 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:33 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
@Robert: Where did the stone at H11 come from? Is that based on Black getting one move in the center in exchange for the aji of the (removes) E11/E12/E13 stones?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #11 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:46 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 553
Liked others: 61
Was liked: 250
Rank: AGA 5 dan
OK, I will give a dissenting opinion. I think the game is still playable for both sides, and I would not mind taking W in this position. W has a considerable lead in secure territory. While it is true that B has superior thickness, W has sente now to do something about that. For example, W can make the beautiful shoulder hit at Q10 to negate much B center thickness. It also looks like an invasion at R17 can easily live, leaving B with very little territory.

Thanks lorill for presenting us with a great position to analyze, perfect for this forum. I would be really interested in hearing a definitive opinion from a professional.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #12 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:38 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Herman, H11 is a sample exchange for A16, just to remind us that Black has one or two sente plays in the center.

Pilgrim, "ca." means ca. Easy:) For Black I have counted K19 and J15 1/2 each. For White, I have not counted D19 etc. but this is a simplification. It makes some sense because Black E19 threatens D18. So it is not just White who can make some territory there. I have counted E13 but not more points below there; this is also an approximation. So "ca." is pretty necessary.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #13 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:41 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Reply to mitsun
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . X . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . O O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X . X . X . . . . . 7 5 8 . |
$$ | . X X O X X X X X O . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . O X X O X . . O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Such sequences come to one's mind but they are not impressive. White cannot even live in sente in the upper right.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #14 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:59 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
The Pilgrim wrote:
Edit : @Robertjasiek : what means "ca." ?


Here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circa

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #15 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:17 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2116
Location: Silicon Valley
Liked others: 152
Was liked: 330
Rank: 2d AGA
GD Posts: 1193
KGS: lavalamp
Tygem: imapenguin
IGS: lavalamp
OGS: daniel_the_smith
To me, it looks close but I would rather play black.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #16 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:26 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
daniel_the_smith wrote:
To me, it looks close but I would rather play black.

+1

_________________
Offending ad removed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #17 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:58 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 4 kyu
Hey Lorill, wanna ask a review of the game ? People looks interested and maybe we'll find that the problem occurs earlier in the game :)
If you can put the SGF online or I'll do it tonight after work ;)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement
Post #18 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:19 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 281
Location: France
Liked others: 69
Was liked: 25
Rank: yes
It was way too fast and full of mistakes to be worthy of a full review, but anyway, here's the game :

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group