Tower Peep query

aurik · #1

Hello everyone,

The "tower peep" has always made me a bit uncomfortable. Because of this, I am often hesitant to play moves that lead to the peep later. However, the prerequisite shape often comes up in stronger games that I watch which leads me to conclude that I just don't know enough about the shape to use it effectively.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$-------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . X . . X . O . . . $$. . . . . . 2 . . . . $$. . . . . 1 . O . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Now I know a few things, such as the default defense after the sequence peep-connect-push-block-cut is to extend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$-------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . X . a X . O . . . $$. . . . . . 1 2 . . . $$. . . . . O 3 O . . . $$. . . . . . 4 5 . . . $$. . . . . . 6 . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

After this, the attachment at a and attacking :b5:

are miai. And, in the absence of surrounding stones this definitely seems good for white.

But this assumes a ladder on :b5:

, does it not? What should I play if the ladders are unfavourable or a ladder breaker is a forcing move? The net *may* work, but leaves a ton of outside forcing moves.

In a recent game of mine, I ran into the following situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . X . . X . O . . . X . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . | $$| . . O . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . . . | $$| . . X . . . . . X . X O X X X . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . O . . X O X O . . . . . | $$| . X . O . . . . . X O O X O . X X X . | $$| . . O . . . O . X . X X O . O X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

In this case, no ladders work for white. And, making the problem worse, the W stones are being pressed up against a corner enclosure, so building thickness isn't really an attractive option, and a net doesn't seem to work either. If W blocks below, B pushes and cross-cuts and takes sizable profit in the top. If W blocks to the right, B pushes and cross-cuts and the W string looks very vulnerable especially with moves like B@Q13 available.

In the actual game, I blocked to the right, but then got lucky because B pushed and cut to the left instead of the right, and then promptly made a mis-read that allowed me to get away with a superior result. But this exchange still exposed my unease and unfamiliarity with the tower peep (as well as costing 1m50s of thinking time in a 10 minute game, which lead to severe time pressure later).

In retrospect, I have an inkling that I should have blocked the middle, sacrificed the stone at the top and tried to take profit either in the middle or with the attachment at H17, aiming to capture the area around F17.

Anyone have any thoughts on the situation? Or general advice on how to handle the tower peep with surrounding stones better?

mw42 · #2

You might find this video helpful: http://www.gocommentary.com/free-videos/how-to-punish-overplay-02.html

Kirby · #3

I don't think you'll get any good "general advice on how to handle the tower peep", because each situation needs to be read.

I think that it's good to consider the "tower peep" as a possible move. Before making it, consider what happens when your opponent peeps. If he peeps, can he get a good result? Can you punish him by making him have bad shape if he peeps?

"Reading it out" sounds like a meaningless answer to your question, but I really don't think that there is any way. Most general advice that people give on "handling the tower peep" can probably be met with counterexamples.

In general, if you've already played - what do you call it? - a tower, then if the opponent peeps, I typically try to see if I can exploit his shape in some way.

But it's best to do this prior to playing such a "tower".

Kirby · #4

By the way, I said there wasn't general advice, but maybe I lied. I do recall techniques to discourage the peep.

Here are is one such technique:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$-------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . 1 2 . . . . . $$. . X . 4 X . O . . . $$. . . . . 3 . . . . . $$. . . . . O . O . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$-------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . 1 . . . . . . $$. . X . 2 X 3 O . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . O . O . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

or other stuff that starts with :w1:

.

I dunno, maybe even this is OK:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 11 @ 'a' $$-------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . 0 1 2 a . . . . $$. . X 6 3 X 9 O . . . $$. . . 8 4 5 . . . . . $$. . . . 7 1 . O . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

mw42 · #5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . X . . X . O 5 7 9 X . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . 1 3 4 6 8 . , X . . | $$| . . O . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . 0 . Y . . Y O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . . . | $$| . . X . . . . . X . X O X X X . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . O . . X O X O . . . . . | $$| . X . O . . . . . X O O X O . X X X . | $$| . . O . . . O . X . X X O . O X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

In your particular situation, maybe you could try to play like this? The problem about asking about this particular peep is that the way you play largely depends on the context of the rest of the board. You have some weaknesses in this area, but if you give up the top you might be able to connect all your weak stones and attack :bt:

.

EDIT: As Kirby said, this peep is not always an overplay. If black is strong everywhere it could be a strong attack, so you would have to always keep it in your mind. That doesn't mean you should not play it, though.

amnal · #6

mw42 wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . X . . X . O 5 7 9 X . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . 1 3 4 6 8 . , X . . | $$| . . O . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . 0 . Y . . Y O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . . . | $$| . . X . . . . . X . X O X X X . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . O . . X O X O . . . . . | $$| . X . O . . . . . X O O X O . X X X . | $$| . . O . . . O . X . X X O . O X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

In your particular situation, maybe you could try to play like this? The problem about asking about this particular peep is that the way you play largely depends on the context of the rest of the board. You have some weaknesses in this area, but if you give up the top you might be able to connect all your weak stones and attack :bt:

.

I don't like this variation, it feels like you gave away about as many points on the top side as you (might) gain in the centre.

If white is going to start off like that, surely continuing like this is better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . X . . X . O 5 6 . X . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . 1 3 4 8 . . , X . . | $$| . . O . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . . Y . . Y O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . . . | $$| . . X . . . . . X . X O X X X . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . O . . X O X O . . . . . | $$| . X . O . . . . . X O O X O . X X X . | $$| . . O . . . O . X . X X O . O X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know what way to protect the double peep is best for white. This way seems okay if black plays like this, but I don't think black would necessarily be so submissive.

mw42 · #7

Yes, the hane would be better. The sequence seems forced to me. Where would black deviate to obtain a better result?

Kirby · #8

On that note, you could play :w8:

at N18, even. Although, I guess there's more aji this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . X . . X . O 5 6 . X . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . 1 3 4 9 a . , X . . | $$| . . O . X . . . O . O 0 b . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . 2 . c . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . . Y . . Y O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . . . | $$| . . X . . . . . X . X O X X X . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . O . . X O X O . . . . . | $$| . X . O . . . . . X O O X O . X X X . | $$| . . O . . . O . X . X X O . O X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

aurik · #9

Didn't see the kosumi defense, that variation looks like a decent way to get a payoff from sacrificing the top edge. Also, great video.

In the game case, the "tower" move was played a long time prior to the peep. In particular, the whole skirmish in the bottom right took place between the tower and the peep. I guess maybe my mistake was playing a variation which lead to capturing M8 in a ladder, because B can play almost anywhere around Q12 for a ladder breaker, makes any territory in that area doubtful after that.

yoyoma · **#10**

It's just 3 random light stones so you shouldn't be too rigid in how to answer. I think some of the answers here are good ideas. Also that the net is very close to working, so you could try a forcing move against the black shimari:

http://eidogo.com/#21vzHDYa:0,1,0

ez4u · **#11**

aurik wrote:

"It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." -- Artemus Ward (19th century American humorist)

Generally we do not consider the peep and cut practical where the attachment at "a" is available as a countermeasure. Therefore shapes with the marked Black stone, or with the stone on "b" instead, should not really worry White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$-------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . B . a X . O . . . $$. . . b . . 2 . . . . $$. . . . . 1 . O . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . . $$. . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

In your recent game example, did you think about the development below at all? If so, how did you expect the position to develop? (This is ignoring the question of whether there were more interesting overall ways to respond.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . X . 6 X . O . . . X . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . 1 2 . . . . , X . . | $$| . . O . X . . . O 3 O . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . O O X X O . . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . . . | $$| . . X . . . . . X . X O X X X . X . . | $$| . . . . . . . O . . X O X O . . . . . | $$| . X . O . . . . . X O O X O . X X X . | $$| . . O . . . O . X . X X O . O X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-------------------------------------[/go]

Tower Peep query

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