Why does black
? I thought the usual response was something like L4.
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| Living joseki http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3931 |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Fri May 27, 2011 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Living joseki |
My attention was arrested by a headline in the latest Gekkan Go World: "Recently popular invasion". I was surprised because invasions don't normally come in ready-packed two-for-the-price-of-one promotions. They are normally custom built - more often than not the missile is launched without all the nuts and bolts being properly tightened - and are associated with desperation more than popularity. "Kerpow!" rather than "Cool!" All soon became clear though. It was about using an invasion in a joseki to make the opponent heavy. A concept apparently not in Robert Jasiek's new book, which I also picked up today. As that implies, it's a pretty rare concept. It refers to White 30 in the attached game. The result up to 37 shows clearly enough what is meant by White's objective. [sgf-full](;SZ[19]FF[3] PW[White] PB[Black] US[GoGoD95] ;B[pd];W[nc];B[qf];W[pp];B[cd];W[dp];B[kc];W[fc];B[dc];W[ic];B[pc];W[kd] ;B[ld];W[jd];B[mc];W[le];B[me];W[mf];B[lf];W[ke];B[ne];W[qn];B[jc];W[id] ;B[jq];W[hq];B[nq];W[oq];B[np];W[lq];B[lr];W[mr];B[nr];W[kr];B[lp];W[kq] ;B[kp] )[/sgf-full] Another interesting point was made by the article's guru, Kobayashi Satoru. He said that this has become popular recently because the previous tactic by White, namely invasion at 30 at once without the 28-29 exchange has been found wanting. So here we have a current example of one jsoeki dying and another flourishing. A third point struck me. This game was from the recently concluded Students Oza (early March 2011) in Tokyo. The winner was Korean Ham Youngwoo who was Black in the game, and his opponent, in eventual fifth place, was Chinese Zhang Wei. What struck me was that, while this event was some way below the big amateur events such as the WAGC or the Amateur Meijin, the players are still apparently au fait with the very latest developments. Apart from presumably having worked very, very hard to get to where they are, they still find time among their studies to keep abreast of go openings. Japan's top players (two women) were down the field in 9th and 10th, incidentally. Taiwan's Yang Bojun was second and China's Wang Zhuo was third. Nicola of Serbia was 6th and Simara (?spelling) of Czechia was 9th. Other countries like Indonesia, Chile, Poland and New Zealand were represented, so it looks as if this event is getting up a head of steam. |
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| Author: | tchan001 [ Fri May 27, 2011 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Living joseki |
John Fairbairn wrote: He said that this has become popular recently because the previous tactic by White, namely invasion at 30 at once without the 28-29 exchange has been found wanting. Could you please elaborate how the old joseki without the 28-29 exchange is found wanting? |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Fri May 27, 2011 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Living joseki |
Quote: Could you please elaborate how the old joseki without the 28-29 exchange is found wanting? Sorry, Kobayashi didn't say. Maybe Robert has a view. I personally have no idea. |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Sat May 28, 2011 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Living joseki |
Why does black ? I thought the usual response was something like L4.
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Sat May 28, 2011 9:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Living joseki |
If black blocks w on top, w m2 connects underneath. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Living joseki |
Without the P3-P4 exchange, White M3 is answered at M2 or Q3. White decides how much he wants to keep in the corner or get on the bottom. White does not need to invade now and can play elsewhere. "using an invasion in a joseki to make the opponent heavy" can be more general "using an invasion to make the opponent heavy" or yet more general "using an invasion to attack". Invasions are indeed not covered as a strategic concept in my new book and therefore such a principle is missing. I have made a note though to include it in books about the middle game. The general form "to attack" is reasonably frequent, the specialized "to make heavy" is less frequent indeed. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Living joseki |
John Fairbairn wrote: Quote: Could you please elaborate how the old joseki without the 28-29 exchange is found wanting? Sorry, Kobayashi didn't say. Maybe Robert has a view. I personally have no idea. I think the interesting question would be whether we see evidence that it is true. My copy of GoGoD is a little too dated to answer the question, but if John could check... I would say the point is whether in recent games we see the joseki above replacing the one below, which only became popular in 2008.? |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Living joseki |
Indeed, move 3 was played against me a couple of days (weeks?) ago on KGS. It was the first time I have seen it in a game. I do not often use such a move myself because it still needs connection reinforcement. Its strength lies mainly in the guaranteed sente while adding some influence. Playable but just one move among many. |
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