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 Post subject: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #1 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:13 pm 
Oza

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A hardy perennial in the garden of go is whether it's worth memorising pro games. I say no. I think reading game commentaries is better However, there is a sort of halfway house which I was going to mention on the appropriate thread, but after some rumination I decided that there may be an even better approach.

My starting point was GoScorer. This has been around for about 16 years now and is still one of the most commented features on the GoGoD CD. Two people mentioned it to me in Santa Barabara. It's simply a program for letting you guess the next move, keeping score on the way. In itself that wasn't original - I copied the idea from chess - but what was perhaps original was a system of hints where the next move might be. A couple of other people have since taken the same idea and added a different version of hinting (I think there's one in SmartGo Kifu), and maybe these are popular, too. I personally rather forgot about the program. In fact, I had trouble finding it on the CD recently when someone asked a question about it, but I do remember once, at the London Open, when T Mark set up a stall where people could try to win a prize by getting a prize, some people took it so seriously that we had to hurry them up to let other people have a go. FWIW, at the end of the event, scores correlated almost perfectly to grade, which may or may not be a talking point.

So, I was going to suggest on the other thread that people might want to try GoScorer. However, I was mulling over the commentary business, and this sharpened my old feeling against commentaries, that they describe the variations/thoughts after the move, and while that is obviously valuable, it's also a bit cock-eyed. Once you've seen the actual move it affects all the subsequent comments a little too powerfully, I find. Columbus's egg and all that.

I got to wondering if there was a way to combine GoScorer and commentaries with the comments in the "right" order, i.e preceding the move. The result is the file below. You won't need GoScorer for this, but you will need some explanation how to use this file.

First, it's a game you are very unlikely to have seen. It's not even in the GoGoD database yet.

Second, I have used a fairly detailed commentary by Sugiuchi, but I have re-written it drastically, for two reasons. One is to adapt to the new format here, and the other is to coincide with comments I have been making elsewhere on L19 recently about the importance of the neglected concept of bullying. Despite the rewrite, the comments are fully informed by the pro version, of course.

To use the file, first try to guess the next move at each point. You will find a brief comment which constitutes a hint. Once you go on to view the move played, you will often find a game comment rather than (or as well as) a hint. The game comments are in [ ]. They look back on the move just played in the usual way, but hints - which are unbracketed - look forward. Occasionally, though, a game comment may also imply a future hint. You may have to force yourself to remember all this, but I'm trying to make do with a standard reader that wasn't meant to be abused in this way. Most moves are hinted at in some way, but sometimes the hints carry over to a few moves in a sequence. The hints here take their cue from the game comments and in no way resemble the hints in GoScorer, or other programs.

You will have to keep score yourself here, and the nature of the new format makes the standard sgf reader even clunkier for variations, so I have just used labels, but if you do try this, I'd be interested in reaction as to whether this format really does work. In fact, it may be useful to others if you record your scores (1 point per move for a correct guess and 0 for a failure), as well as any comments you have, in a hidden post, maybe. I'd also be interested to know whether those who do memorise games find it easier to memorise this game once they have played through it first in scoring mode.

I also found the commentary quite interesting in its own right - some nice points about dealing with moyos.


[sgf-full](;FF[3]C[Traditional]AP[MultiGo:4.2.1]SZ[19]EV[Old Masters vs Newer Stars 12-game match sponsored by Kido]
RO[Game 7]DT[Published 1975-07]PC[Nihon Ki-in]PB[Sugiuchi Masao]BR[9d]PW[Ishii Kunio]
WR[8d]KM[5.5]TM[3h]RE[B+R]US[GoGoD95]CP[John Fairbairn/GoGoD]MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[qd]C[High];W[dd]C[Diagonally opposite];B[cp]C[3-3];W[qq]C[Approach move];B[fc]
C[Pincer];W[jd]C[Counter pincer];B[df]C[Commonest joseki, and so on up to move 16 inclusive]
;W[fd];B[gd];W[fe];B[ec];W[de];B[cb];W[ge];B[hd];W[he]C[Solidify a corner while leaving a follow-up]
;B[nc]LB[id:A]C[[The follow-up threatened was A\]

A key point of this game\: corner approach or use thickness?]
;W[eq]C[[A personal choice\]

Pincer];B[hp]C[A then popular joseki (1975)];W[go]
C[Be aware of White's thickness];B[dn]LB[ho:A][gn:B][hn:C][gm:D][cm:E][hm:F][il:G]
[cn:H]C[[Black didn't like A to F because White's turn at F works well with the thickness above, and if Black replaces E with G, White gets H\]

Again be aware of the thickness]
;W[dl]LB[gp:A][dk:B][hq:C]C[[White A to C lets Black erase the thickness\]

We are out of joseki lines]
;B[fp]C[Standard technique when the elephant's move is trampled on. Achieve a standard thickness vs territory division of the spoils up to Black 31 inclusive.]
;W[gp];B[fq];W[gq];B[gr];W[hq];B[er];W[fo];B[ep]C[Is White's focus now the lower side or the left side?]
;W[fl]LB[op:A][el:B][ek:C][em:D][fk:E][gm:F][kp:G][pk:H][dk:I][dj:J]C[[Sugiuchi thought White 32 was a "nowt nor summick" move, or maybe even an overplay. He suggested as an alternative White A to H, in which case he can afford to let Black cut at I - answering sacrifically with J.\]

If it is an overplay, punish it - or what?]
;B[pp]C[[Play where the opponent should have played\]

Choose which way to extend]
;W[pq]C[[The standard heuristic is push first in the direction you don't want to go\]

Joseki moves now]
;B[op];W[ro]C[Joseki next, but...];B[om]LB[pm:A][oq:B]C[[Black 37 is common enough to count as a joseki, but it is far less than common than A, or even B. The higher point was chosen to offset White's left-side moyo a little more\]

Continue the joseki, and/or are there strategic considerations?]
;W[hb]C[[White chose this, and his next move, to consolidate his moyo\]

Defend properly]
;B[gb]C[Continue the strategy];W[id]C[Deal with the moyo in a standard way];B[if]
C[[One of the standard ways to deal with a moyo is to create a toehold\]

Does only a fool answer a peep?]
;W[ie]C[Use the toehold];B[cj]C[[White went cold\]

The following sequence is inevitable to make the best of a bad job]
;W[bl];B[ej];W[gj]C[Live or run?];B[cf]C[[The group is now unattackable\]

The moyo is no more - White has to re-assess his strategy.]
;W[bc]C[[More best-of-bad-job moves - he gets what he can locally and firms up a now potentiall weak group\]]
;B[bb];W[be];B[bf];W[eg]C[Submit again? If so, how.

This was lunchtime - you may wish to grab a sandwich, too.]
;B[eh]C[[A standard way of dealing with an invaded moyo is to let the invader live, but small. Black knows he can still lose if he thus allows himself to be bullied into a tiny life. This phase of the game is where the difference between pro and amateur approaches becomes most apparent, the commentary said.\]
]
;W[dh]C[Be consistent as Black.];B[ei]LB[dg:A][di:B][fh:C][ch:D]C[[Black A, White 55, Black B to D would be safe but revert to allowing himself to be bullied\]]
;W[dg]C[Best way to run];B[fg]C[[Force first\]];W[ef];B[hi]C[[Get ahead of the opponent\]

What is White's strategy now?]
;W[gi]LB[bh:A][hj:B]C[[White is on the defensive but he still has to think strategically. He would like to play A but Black would then play B and be very thick. White has to combat Black's designs on thickness and so tries to settle the situation locally\]

A little bit of give-and-take follows]
;B[gh];W[hh];B[hg];W[ih];B[jf]C[Forcing move];W[ab]C[Black has to defend, but what bearing does the upper right have?]
;B[ba]LB[da:A][eb:B]C[[This lives because A and B are now miai, but there is a lot of aji on the upper side which affects the right-side corner\]

Sensible move required now]
;W[bh]LB[kh:A][lf:B]C[[White would like the big point at A, but Black could ignore this move because B and 68 would be miai for his group. White sensibly takes a large profit which also settles his upper left group\]

Forcing move]
;B[em];W[el]C[Make the move the forcing move prepared];B[gk]C[[White is thin, and this determines Black's strategy\]

For the next few moves White is in wriggling mode]
;W[hk]LB[fk:A][hj:B][fj:C][jj:D][kh:E][lf:F]C[[Simply A to B allows Black to be totally efficient\]]
;B[gl];W[fk];B[fm]C[[Note in hindsight the effective timing of the forcing move Black 69\]
]
;W[ii]LB[hl:A][gm:B][fj:C]C[[Plays at A or B instead for White are problematical because Black's cut at C is sente. White settles himself first\]

A strategic shift for Black now]
;B[kg]LB[fj:A]C[White still has to worry about his centre group because of the cut at A]
;W[ki]C[[Ishii said that perhaps A, with the same baisc idea of settling his group, was better. It's thin but, Sugiuchi said, when you are think already it can be best to continue playing thinly - in for a penny, in for a pound, it's a long lane with no loaf on the bread\]

Strategic wriggling now - note the situation on the lower side]
;B[hl]C[[This and the follow-up make White thin on the lower side\]];W[ik];B[jm]
;W[kp]C[Back to Plan A];B[mh]C[[Yes, Black is mapping out some sort of area on the right, but he is also settling a potentially troublesome group\]

A quick force]
;W[dm];B[en]C[[Sugiuchi played the last two moves without making a sound even as he took the stones from the bowl. A cobra waiting to pounce.\]

In for a penny again]
;W[lm]C[[In contrast, Ishii slammed this move on the board, but apologised and went off to _spend_ a penny this time. In the circumstances 86 was probably the best move.\]

Black's next is not easy. Sugiuchi spent over an hour on it, out of a three-hour allowance.]
;B[ll]C[[Black would like to emphasise his moyo on the right, but that is not easy to do. And careless play in the centre could lead to his left-centre and lower right groups being caught in a splitting attack. The prime motivation behind the eventual Black 87 was to achieve sabakl, i.e. simply to cope in some resilient way.\]

For the next few tactical moves White tries to turn the screw in the hope of engineering the splitting attack]
;W[im];B[il];W[jl];B[jk];W[kl];B[km];W[kk];B[in];W[ln];B[hm];W[ml];B[lk];W[kj]C[Time for Black to consolidate a little]
;B[ok]C[White's next two moves employ the advanced technique of choshi - inducing the momentum to get in the move he really has in mind]
;W[nj];B[oj];W[ni];B[ph]LB[mk:A][nk:B][nl:C][mm:D][oh:E]C[[Black could have tried to take even more of the right side, starting with A to D to shorten White's liberties and then playing E. But this is very high risk. A 20-move variation was given to show that White can cut off and kill Black's left-centre group, but the variation is omitted here - the numerous cutting points suggest the way this is done, though.\]

That leaves White with only the option of direct attack on the left-centre group. Remember the aji on the upper side.]
;W[mg]C[Counterattack];B[bi];W[fj];B[ke];W[og]C[Think also about the upper right]
;B[kd]LB[rm:A][nr:B]C[[Black's upper right corner is thin and invadable. This move extends a helping hand. Without this move White can expect to get most of the upper side - variations omitted here - whilst Black gets a wall surrounding the invading stones. That wall then makes A a very tasty move for Black, but the problem with that is that White B is then almost as tasty, cancelling out much of the value of A, which means Black falls behind because White's big profit at the top has no offsetting move like B.\]]
;W[oi];B[pi]C[With his upper left group knocking its knees - not so much worrying about life and death but about giving Black free profit from bullying moves - White has a strategic decision to make.]
;W[pg]C[[White decides to let his slightly weak group fend for itself.\]

Patience]
;B[qn]LB[qg:A][qj:B]C[[Best. Black A instead suffers White B\]

Bully Black a little]
;W[rn];B[qm];W[qg];B[kc]C[[Black can't go on being bullied - he's a pro! But he is also shoring up the upper right corner a little more. White's last move has exposed the thinness again.\]

How does White take note of Black's defiance?]
;W[qj];B[qk]C[White's next move looks obvious when you see it, but you may need to stand back and re-focus. Bear in mind that White's bullying of the Black group on the right has also strengthened it, and also that we have now entered the boundary-play stage.]
;W[hr]C[[This was White's weakest group . Even in the endgame the rule about playing in relation to your weakest group first (and then the opponent's weakest group if you have no weak groups) still applies, but in fact this was the last weak group, said Sugiuchi. Sugiuchi now had 40 minutes left and Ishii 30 minutes\]

Now look a rather elegant ko.
]
;B[ah];W[ch];B[aj];W[ag]C[Tough one next, perhaps! Think psychology.];B[ip]C[[This was probably a declaration of victory. At any rate Ishii began commenting that it wasn't good for him, and then he graduated to "awful". Apart from its profit-and-loss value, Black's move creates some awful ko threats.\]

Quick force.]
;W[gs];B[fr]C[White's next couple of moves are necessary, but look ahead now to Black 133.]
;W[iq];B[jp];W[jq];B[oq]C[[Black 131 was a kind of momentum move to make this 133 more powerful.\]

White's moves to the left on this side are in danger of becoming useless.]
;W[lr]C[[Forced but Black's next is inevitable, too - and likewise White's move after that\]]
;B[or];W[rr]C[Remember this is the boundary play stage.];B[re];W[jb];B[kb]C[Perhaps Ishii was looking now a resignation scene-setting move?]
;W[ai]C[[Ishii sat formally erect but could not mask his loss of the will to fight on. A two-stage ko develops but it is a mere distraction.\]]
;B[pr];W[qr];B[ah];W[ci];B[bk];W[ai]C[Black's next two moves, in combination, were big but may have had a drawback which needed checking out, especially as Ishii still had 20 minutes left.]
;B[rh];W[rg]C[[This makes Black's corner thin yet again. Did you check that Black has no need to worry?\]]
;B[ri]C[Think thin then];W[pc]C[[The last gamble, but careful defence leads to White's resignation in a few moves.\]]
;B[pd];W[oc];B[od];W[rc];B[qc];W[qb];B[nb]LB[pa:A][ra:B][sb:C][sc:D]C[[White resigns. The corner dies after White A\: Black B, or White B Black C. Actually, White could have got a ko with D, and Sugiuchi at first thought Ishii might have missed it, but Ishii indicated that he had seen it and it was still not enough to connect up on the edge. He just wanted to get it all over with.\]])[/sgf-full]


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 9 people: Akura, Chew Terr, Darrell, emeraldemon, ez4u, gaius, Mef, Oroth, Stable
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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #2 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:34 pm 
Judan
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I think that this idea has great possibilities. :clap: The idea of pre-comment is rather unexplored.

I would like to see it extended a bit. Whe we are talking about a move before it is played, we often speak of goals and motivations. I'd like to see that here.
For example, the text at move 5 - talking about move 6 - merely says 'pincer'. I don't learn anything from that. ( I might as well be back to memorising ) What I would like to see is an explanation of why white might want to pincer, something that would enable me to invoke similar reasoning on the next occasion when I should be playing a pincer.

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #3 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:44 pm 
Oza
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I think that this idea has great possibilities. :clap: The idea of pre-comment is rather unexplored.

I would like to see it extended a bit. Whe we are talking about a move before it is played, we often speak of goals and motivations. I'd like to see that here.
For example, the text at move 5 - talking about move 6 - merely says 'pincer'. I don't learn anything from that. ( I might as well be back to memorising ) What I would like to see is an explanation of why white might want to pincer, something that would enable me to invoke similar reasoning on the next occasion when I should be playiong a pincer.


Quickly approaching pro Malkovitch.

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #4 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:09 pm 
Gosei
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Thank you for posting, that was very entertaining.

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #5 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:19 pm 
Lives with ko

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A bit similar to goscorer is this:

http://www.weiqiok.com/asp/GameGuess.as ... yDay=1&L=1

It allows you to play out large numbers of games.

I find it attractive to use - to the extent that I tried to dig up goscorer. I have a student project this year which aims to build a gameguess/goscorer type system.

Ant plans to advance goscorer?

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #6 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:39 pm 
Lives with ko

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Neat idea. I got 54 moves right, only a 34% success rate.
I was bad at local fights, abandonning them too early. I also missed most of the forcing moves, and a few joseki (the first pincer for example).

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #7 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:08 pm 
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I like the general idea, but think it would be better to select a limited number of "predict the next move" positions during the game. These should be positions where there is one clearly best move or sequence, but where spotting that move takes some knowledge or skill for an amateur. Hints are a nice idea when several good but different strategies are possible, or when timing of a good move is difficult to predict. For what it is worth, I scored 82 points, but a large percentage were joseki or forced sequences. Maybe one point should be awarded for getting all the moves in a forced sequence? The only success I am really proud of was move 59.

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #8 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:24 am 
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I think something like this has promise. I actually gave up on self-scoring because I was doing atrociously - the game felt like quite a difficult one for me. One thing I noticed though was that if I read the hint first and then looked at the board I tended to start looking in the wrong place - I was becoming more focused on answering the hint and not playing the right move.

A dedicated program might work as follows:
You are given no hints and can guess anywhere.
If you don't know where to play you can reveal a written hint
If that fails to help you can also reveal a multiple choice selection to narrow down the possibilities.

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #9 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:39 am 
Oza

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Quote:
A dedicated program might work as follows:
You are given no hints and can guess anywhere.
If you don't know where to play you can reveal a written hint
If that fails to help you can also reveal a multiple choice selection to narrow down the possibilities.


This is exactly what GoScorer does. The format here is far from ideal, though I'm puzzled why hints of the type given here would lead you to a different area of the board. Any ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #10 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:04 am 
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It might have just been a case of not taking my time or tiredness. However, without thinking through the board first I ended up interpreting clues overly-literally. For instance hint on move 31: "Is White's focus now the lower side or the left side?" started me deliberating between plays at M3 and C11 - far off track. Following intutition first would lead me to consider the merits of blocking off D6 or extending from R3. All this is probably only reflective of personal brain flaws.

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 Post subject: Re: In lieu of memorising games - an experiment
Post #11 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:51 am 
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Fun exercise -- I tried playing it in the browser by setting the SGF viewer to play mode, set up a spreadsheet with 1 columns...Click my guess, if it's right (easy to tell by the variation tree) score one in the first column, if it's wrong, choose my second move before clicking back (that way when I click back and see the variations labelled it won't have been spoiled). If the second guess is right, score one in the second column. I tried playing through the first 100 moves this way (44 on first try, 19 on second--Guess I need some practice)...Not quite as good as GoScorer since there's no hints, etc, but still fun.

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