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| Punishing the hane (for beginners) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6155 |
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| Author: | tchan001 [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
For beginners, one of the very first joseki learned is how to handle a 3-3 invasion under a 4-4 stone. And for the most part you end up with this familiar shape. There is nothing wrong with the above but you need to be careful that you don't automatically play like this whenever you face a 3-3 invasion. Now another common situation beginners face is the pincer against the low approach to the 4-4 corner and which is answered with the 3-3 invasion. Some people might want to separate the invasion stone from linking with the pincered stone and thus they would choose to block. Still looks good so far. Now if we follow a common joseki, we'd arrive at this position But some people might think that Black should seek more and try to aim for something like this. Doesn't it look like Black could earn a lot more if he played the hane as if it were just the 3-3 invasion without the pincer exchange? So what's wrong with this and why is it not joseki? The problem is that White will not just easily follow the 3-3 invasion joseki, instead White will answer the hane with a descend. The usual sequence ends with White having a large corner and Black being a bit overconcentrated. But what happens if Black tries to save the r5 stone by extending? Now there are really no good moves for Black afterwards. So remember not to confuse the 3-3 invasion with the pincered 3-3 invasion and watch out for that hane. From a recent game of mine, I was able to recognize the transposition of the pincered 3-3 invasion that was answered by a hane. The game ended quickly with my opponent resigning after I punished his poor moves. Enjoy. |
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| Author: | illluck [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
That descent is not always the correct punish (though obviously much better than the tricked sequence). I personally tend to always play the second-line hane unless I'm relatively sure that connecting to the original approach stone is a good result. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
IMO if you think "punish" the hane, you're already on the wrong track. |
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| Author: | illluck [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
EdLee wrote: IMO if you think "punish" the hane, you're already on the wrong track. I disagree, the hane almost always gives an inferior result when answered correctly. That's why it's well-known as a trick play for ddk. Trick plays should be punished. I know it's been played in pro games, but the fact that it's so rare should by itself be a strong indicator of inferiority. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
Illluck's hane connect then clamp is the recommended punishment - pro opinion. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
There is quite a lot of material on Sensei's Library concerning this situation: http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointOneSpace ... terception http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoBloopers http://senseis.xmp.net/?AllAbout33PointInvasion The links above give details about what happens when Black responds to W6 in illuck's diagram by descending to S5. Cutting the hane can lead to some very complicated variations depending on the location of the pincer stone e.g. if it is a one-space high pincer then the cut doesn't work. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Uberdude wrote: Illluck's hane connect then clamp is the recommended punishment - pro opinion. Not true.
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| Author: | lindentree [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Uberdude wrote: Illluck's hane connect then clamp is the recommended punishment - pro opinion. Not true.Maybe we should clarify which pros said what; Mingjiu Jiang showed me the descent "punishment", not the hane/clamp, a few years ago. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
One diagram that is missing from the discussion:  is normally a good reply to  , and this result is usually fine for Black.When I was learning go was considered the refutation to  . But because of this diagram pro opinion has shifted, as Uberdude says, to recommending the next diagram:This diagram is inferior for Black, as the exchange of and  is aji keshi by comparison with joseki.
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| Author: | illluck [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Uberdude wrote: Illluck's hane connect then clamp is the recommended punishment - pro opinion. Not true.That is the opinion of Wu Xinyu 6p (his wording suggested it was actually the opinion of a group). I have a link to the episode in which he discussed it but will not post it here for copyright issues. PM me if interested. |
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| Author: | Mef [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
tchan001 wrote: The usual sequence ends with White having a large corner and Black being a bit overconcentrated. Perhaps it would be better to call this "a common mistake made by black" If you play the decent after the hane, the move you should expect is for black to connect (otherwise you are guilty of the same "reading to my own advantage" flaw you are assuming your opponent has). Playing the descent means that this is the shape white wants: Worth noting that white is now shut off from the right side, which is not so with the clamp mentioned up thread. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Uberdude wrote: Illluck's hane connect then clamp is the recommended punishment - pro opinion. Not true.It is true. You might not like it but it is a fact that that is the opinion of Liu Yuanbo 2p with whom I studied Go in China a few years ago. Other pros may have other opinions. Maybe he is wrong, maybe they are wrong, maybe there is no right answer. Pro opinion is not a monolith, as someone said. An important point to notice with the hane is that if black switches direction as in Bill's diagram (which is inconsistent strategically with the pincer but locally not so bad) then White connects to the initial approach stone on the 3rd line and has a few more points and also black has less good thickness if he covers. |
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| Author: | tchan001 [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
I remember learning this punishment from a workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p a few years ago. Search for the relevant parts of her lecture: Double Digit Kyu Workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p part 4a Double Digit Kyu Workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p part 5a at http://eurogotv.com I would think that for beginners, if they originally plan to block White from connecting that they would continue to block White from connecting by following the descent with another descent. But for higher ranked players, it has been shown that perhaps the descent can be superceded with the hane as shown by illuck, but in any case the hane by Black at r5 has been shown to be punishable and should be avoided by beginners. EdLee wrote: IMO if you think "punish" the hane, you're already on the wrong track. Ed Lee begs to differ but has not shown us a line of play to support why he believes the r5 move not to be a mistake by Black. |
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| Author: | jts [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
This is a timely post - just yesterday I mistakenly played the hane-connect on the second line and then followed up with the cross-cut. Fortunately my opponent screwed up. I know that we once had a thread on this exact topic (with the exact same squabble over whether the descent or the second-line hane is "better"), but with much longer sequences showing the "complete disaster" outcomes. Does anyone remember where that thread is? |
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| Author: | judicata [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
I had a similar discussion with a pro friend recently. I've always played the descent as white, but reconsidered after looking at the following (it's been a few weeks, but I'm pretty sure this is right): How to respond to 3? I might post some variations later, but unfortunately I don't have time. The conclusion was that the clamp sequence ends up better for white: Again, this has been awhile, so take this with a grain of salt. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
Uberdude wrote: Illluck's hane connect then clamp is the recommended punishment - pro opinion. I'm sure you were being tongue-in-cheek and referencing this thread. But I don't think "pros play this way so you should too" is the best advice. I liked the diagrams from Bill and Mef, which gave me a better idea of why I might not want to play the descent. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
Given this diagram: Can't White force a transposition? Which makes me think of the immediate clamp: Sometimes this may be preferable to the hane and connect variation. |
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| Author: | illluck [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
tchan001 wrote: I remember learning this punishment from a workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p a few years ago. Search for the relevant parts of her lecture: Double Digit Kyu Workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p part 4a Double Digit Kyu Workshop by Kang Seung-hee 2p part 5a at http://eurogotv.com That variation she showed with the 9k in part 4a... seems completely wrong. There's no way that the descent after clamp is right (even though she said around 5 min that it was good and the right move). I'm sure she can wipe the board with me even giving 4-6 stones, but that variation can't be right. Edit: To add a bit more info, here's my try at the punish of the sequence shown. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
tchan001 wrote: why he believes the r5 move not to be a mistake by Black. Nowhere did I say whether or not I consider R5 to be a mistake by Black.  Please don't put words into my mouth.See this thread -- in particular John's Posts #3 and #9 -- viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1578 |
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| Author: | illluck [ Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Punishing the hane (for beginners) |
Mmm, the sequence I proposed 2 posts ago may not be correct because one of the moves is not as forcing as I originally thought. Second attempt? |
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