It is currently Fri May 02, 2025 8:01 pm

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 13 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: counting/endgame problem
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:52 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
This game is almost over. But who won, and by how much? 6.5 komi, Japanese rules.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . |
$$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: forgot to add, white has 1 more prisoner than black.


Last edited by emeraldemon on Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:01 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
I'm not very good at this, but I have white up by 9 or so.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:34 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
My best guess:
Assuming nothing tricksy, I have a 1.5 point game in W's favor. (My counting isn't accurate to within one point anyway, though.) However, I see a need for two repair moves.

Edit: no, never mind on the first one. Black doesn't need to make any repair moves. Capturing the r10 stones is fine. Ignore the first two diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 3 X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 2 |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 4 1 |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . 9 8 |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X 7 6 |
$$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 5 X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:oops:

One variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w5: @ :w3:, :b6: @ :w1: :b8: @ :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 7 X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 3 |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 2 1 |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X 4 |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . 0 |
$$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 9 X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Meanwhile, down in the other corner, B has a 1 pt move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | 3 . 4 O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | 5 2 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . 2 . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | 5 3 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . 4 O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, these repair moves cancel out, so it should still be W+1.5 if I counted correctly.
So it's actually W+0.5.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Jayy
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:02 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 18
Location: Good Ol Ontario Boy
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 1
Rank: CGA 2k
KGS: Jayy
Tygem: Jayy
OGS: Jayy
I read W+0.5.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline Ellyster
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:39 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 62
Location: Granada, Spain | Osaka, Japan | Turku, Finland | Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 50
Was liked: 22
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
KGS: Ellyster
I'm not very good at counting yet.

My final count is W+0.5, but my first mental counting was B+0.5 so it seems that I misscounted one white territory at first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | S O S S S S O W B . O S S S S S S S S |
$$ | # O # O S O S O X X O S S S O S S S S |
$$ | S # O S O O O X X O O O O O X O O O S |
$$ | S # O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X T Q X X X O O X X . . X X X |
$$ | O X X Q X T Q T T X O O . X O O O O X |
$$ | X T X Q T T Q X X X X P O O S O X X T |
$$ | T X T X X T Q X O O O O S S # O X T T |
$$ | T T X T T T T X X . X X O O O X Q X T |
$$ | T T T X X T T T T X T X X O . X Q X T |
$$ | T X X O O X T T X X X X O O . X T T T |
$$ | X T X O O X X X O X O . O . X T X T T |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X T T T X |
$$ | O X O X X . . X O S O X O X X X Q X O |
$$ | W O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | S S S O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | S S O O X X X X X T X X O O O # O S O |
$$ | S S O X X T X T T T X O S O S S O O S |
$$ | S S O O X T T T T X O O O S S S S S S |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:46 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
@jts
Quote:
Edit: no, never mind on the first one. Black doesn't need to make any repair moves


Are you sure? What happens when players fill in dame?


@Ellyster
There are 3 small mistakes in your count. What happens when players fill in dame?
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:14 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B just responds to T12 at R9 and he's fine. So yeah, final answer.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:42 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
@jts
jts wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O |
$$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X |
$$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B |
$$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . |
$$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . |
$$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X |
$$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O |
$$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O |
$$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B just responds to T12 at R9 and he's fine. So yeah, final answer.


This diagram is correct! but I think you should count it again :) I thought spotting the aji in the lower left was the tricky part, but apparently it's counting that's difficult.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:19 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2659
Liked others: 310
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
Yeah, well. :-) I never expected to get the count right! I recounted and got B+2.5, and then I recounted a third time and got W+0.5 again.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:43 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
I get Black by .5, but only because I saw Jts's point about the lower left.

I *really* need to work on my counting. My estimate wandered from B+2.5 to W+1.5 just because of memory errors or literal counting errors. I counted the upper left as 16 points for awhile.

_________________
Occupy Babel!
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:57 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
@hyperpape

hyperpape wrote:
I get Black by .5, but only because I saw Jts's point about the lower left.

I *really* need to work on my counting. My estimate wandered from B+2.5 to W+1.5 just because of memory errors or literal counting errors. I counted the upper left as 16 points for awhile.


This is correct :tmbup:
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:09 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1744
Liked others: 704
Was liked: 288
KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
@jts

Should be B+0.5
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: counting/endgame problem
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:24 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Liked others: 499
Was liked: 733
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
If you ever want to post more of these, I enjoyed it. You don't necessarily get this kind of feedback when you count in game. I guess what I should do is count all my OGS games late in the endgame.

_________________
Occupy Babel!
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 13 posts ] 

Board index » Improve Your Game » Study Group

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group