Life In 19x19 :: Another problem from a game

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Another problem from a game http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6570	Page 1 of 1

Author:	yoyoma [ Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Another problem from a game
Another problem from a game. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| . . . X . O . . $$ \| . 1 . . . O . . $$ \| . . X . . O . . $$ \| . . X . O . . . $$ \| . X . O . . . . $$ \| . O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
It looks alive to me. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| 6 . . X . O . . $$ \| 7 1 . 8 . O . . $$ \| 5 2 X . . O . . $$ \| 3 . X . O . . . $$ \| 4 X . O . . . . $$ \| . O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Author:	yoyoma [ Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
Joaz Banbeck wrote: It looks alive to me. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| 6 . . X . O . . $$ \| 7 1 . 8 . O . . $$ \| 5 2 X . . O . . $$ \| 3 . X . O . . . $$ \| 4 X . O . . . . $$ \| . O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]` What about hane at instead?

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
You mean like this? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| . 6 . X . O . . $$ \| . 1 . . . O . . $$ \| . 2 X . . O . . $$ \| 4 . X . O . . . $$ \| 3 X . O . . . . $$ \| 5 O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Author:	cyclops [ Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
just a guess Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc $$ \| . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . , . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . $$ \| 5 X X . . O . $$ \| 6 . . X . O . $$ \| 9 1 7 8 . O . $$ \| . 2 X , . O . $$ \| 4 . X . O . . $$ \| 3 X . O . . . $$ \| . O O . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . .[/go]` edit: so it seems I guessed 6 out of 9

Author:	yoyoma [ Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
Joaz Banbeck wrote: You mean like this? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| . 6 . X . O . . $$ \| . 1 . . . O . . $$ \| . 2 X . . O . . $$ \| 4 . X . O . . . $$ \| 3 X . O . . . . $$ \| 5 O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]` .... Keep going.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
yoyoma wrote: .. .... Keep going. I've done the essential part. The rest is just judicious application of miai.

Author:	yoyoma [ Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
Joaz Banbeck wrote: yoyoma wrote: .. .... Keep going. I've done the essential part. The rest is just judicious application of miai. You think Black has miai to live? I don't think so. I'll add a few more moves: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| . 6 . X . O . . $$ \| . 1 . . . O . . $$ \| . 2 X . . O . . $$ \| 4 . X . O . . . $$ \| 3 X . O . . . . $$ \| 5 O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm7 $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| . X . X . O . . $$ \| 3 O 1 2 . O . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| X . X . O . . . $$ \| O X . O . . . . $$ \| O O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Author:	yoyoma [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
No one is posting, I'll add a few more moves. Maybe I'm about to discover something obvious that I hadn't seen before? yoyoma wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: yoyoma wrote: .. .... Keep going. I've done the essential part. The rest is just judicious application of miai. You think Black has miai to live? I don't think so. I'll add a few more moves: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| . 6 . X . O . . $$ \| . 1 . . . O . . $$ \| . 2 X . . O . . $$ \| 4 . X . O . . . $$ \| 3 X . O . . . . $$ \| 5 O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm7 Black tries to make a seki, but White cuts. Black dies. $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| 4 X X . . O . . $$ \| . X . X . O . . $$ \| 3 O 1 2 . O . . $$ \| . X X 7 . O . . $$ \| X 6 X . O . . . $$ \| O X 5 O . . . . $$ \| O O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm7 I think Black must make a ko. $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| . X X . . O . . $$ \| 6 X . X . O . . $$ \| 3 O 1 2 . O . . $$ \| 5 X X . . O . . $$ \| X 7 X . O . . . $$ \| O X 4 O . . . . $$ \| O O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Author:	illluck [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
I didn't read this very carefully, but what about this? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O O O O . . . $$ \| 0 X X . . O . . $$ \| 9 7 b X . O . . $$ \| 8 1 6 . . O . . $$ \| a 2 X . . O . . $$ \| 4 c X . O . . . $$ \| 3 X . O . . . . $$ \| 5 O O . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . .[/go]` 11 at a, 12 at b, 13 at c, 14 at 8, 15 at 4, 16 at 7. A few other variations that's more or less similar, black seems to live after 6.

Author:	yoyoma [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
Aha illluck, I didn't see that. But I think White can use a different move order. The problem is getting more and more variations so I'm switching to sgf:

Author:	jts [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
You have the 5(a)-8(b)-10(b) variation ending in death, but you neglect at d13, which is ko. On 5(a)-8(b)-10(c), you have filling in a shared liberty at A10, but if B takes an external liberty first, W has no move. On 5(a)-8(a)-12(c), can fill the ko, and W has no move.

Author:	yoyoma [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
Thanks jts. I fixed the problems you pointed out. To fix the 3rd problem you pointed out, I had to add an extra white stone to the problem (oops!). Any more mistakes?

Author: Tommie [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:17 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Another problem from a game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | q X X 2 . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Dear all, in above variation, Black takes of course a liberty with :b3:

from the other side
(the one with more libs), then would win the semeai.

i thought however of another sequence, which sprang to mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 5 O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | a X X 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 4 7 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . r X , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | 9 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 8 X p O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | q O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

attempts to enlarge the eye-space, :w2:

= A and

try to do the opposite.
Black is dead after W10 = P., because Q and R are miai.

Note the usefulness of both white :white:

,
does this exact position really come from a game record?

Author:	yoyoma [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
Hi Tommie thanks for looking. Did you see my latest fix? See any problems? Here is the real game it came from (I'm black, one of my many alternate names ) http://eidogo.com/#url:http://files.gok ... Minute.sgf

Author:	Tommie [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another problem from a game
yoyoma wrote: Hi Tommie thanks for looking. Did you see my latest fix? See any problems? Here is the real game it came from (I'm black, one of my many alternate names ) http://eidogo.com/#url:http://files.gok ... Minute.sgf W21 - if stretch instead of double-hane -> perhaps sente? W32 - peep, I'm not sure about Interesting position - my first attempts were wrong

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