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Multiple simultaneous joseki
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Author:  Alguien [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Multiple simultaneous joseki
In this game, I tried something I've seen but never tried before: stopping mid-joseki to start another one in a different corner.

My reasoning for playing 1 was:
- I want to play first in the empty corner.
- The main variation for the bottom right joseki ends in sente, but maybe there are others that give w a lesser loss than not starting in the other corner.
- If I go there now and he ignores and plays on bottom right, I can make a shimari on top left and, even if he plays a fourth stone on bottom right, I'll have some aji there.

However, what my opponent did was play a second joseki that also ended in sente for me, giving me three corners.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 7 to 16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 4 O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the questions:
- Is this too good for B?
- Was :w2: the mistake? For not having punished on bottom right, or :w4: for not having taken top left.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Alguien wrote:
The main variation for this joseki ends in sente...
Which joseki?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 4 O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Alguien wrote:
Is this too good for B?
No. What makes you think it is good for B at all? -- Everything is joseki.
For example, if :b17: and :w18: (joseki moves again),
then eventually you need to fix the weakness at (a) --
because you did not play the tiger's mouth at (b) for :b11:, but descended to :bc:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Alguien wrote:
The main variation for this joseki ends in sente...
Which joseki?


The bottom right (It was my line of thought to play 1.

As you said, though, I was wrong and it's not sente if I don't play the tiger mouth. :oops:

EdLee wrote:
No. What makes you think it is good for B at all? -- Everything is joseki.


I'm not sure why it feels good for b. Maybe I overvalue having three corners.

EdLee wrote:
For example, if :b17: and :w18: (joseki moves again),
then eventually you need to fix the weakness at (a) --
because you did not play the tiger's mouth at (b) for :b11:, but descended to :bc:.


But fixing in joseki give this, right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd rather be black here, but I may well be mistaken.
Author:  Uberdude [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Multiple simultaneous joseki
This kind of tenuki during joseki can be a high level way to play, but usually you are doing it in adjacent corners as a probe to decide how to continue in the other corner in a way which makes your opponent's shapes inefficient or yours extra efficient. Diagonal corners aren't so related, apart from ladder breakers.

Alguien wrote:
- Was :w2: the mistake?


IMO, Yes, you tenuki-d the lower right after he contacted your stone. When two single stones are in contact the area is extremely hot and urgent so your tenuki to to the top left was a mistake and he should have continued with hane in the lower right as this extra move is more damaging to you than an approach in the top left. You say you'd make a shimari? The below variation is good for white, the lower right corner is huge and super thick.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alguien wrote:
- Is this too good for B?

EdLee wrote:
No. What makes you think it is good for B at all? -- Everything is joseki.


But that doesn't mean it can't be good for black, if through the move order of the tenukis black has arranged the josekis in a way that is advantageous to him and disadvantageous to white. It's difficult for me to judge if this is the case here.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Uberdude wrote:
It's difficult for me to judge if this is the case here.
Yes, I feel this way all the time. :)
Author:  topazg [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Multiple simultaneous joseki
I prefer Black, but only marginally. As Ed says, Black has some bad aji on the right hand side, but in Ed's :w18: continuation I think White has somewhat worse aji overall. Either way, it's a pretty close game. The top left corner has very little development potential, so White's not got a bad result, and has a potentially nice left hand side. The right hand side looks good for Black to develop, but at the same time he has some weaknesses to fix first.

Looks like a game that could become complicated quite quickly to me - I suspect the game will be won/lost a lot later on than this position ;)
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Multiple simultaneous joseki
topazg wrote:
Looks like a game that could become complicated quite quickly to me - I suspect the game will be won/lost a lot later on than this position ;)


As usual, my question came from a game of mine. It went all to hell pretty quickly, but it was a blitz (for my standards) game, so the quality doesn't deserve analysis. :)
Author:  gasana [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Multiple simultaneous joseki
why tenuki if the joseki end up in sente? you could just play it out (with tiger mouth i really don't think he can tenuki, the attack would be to good) and go to the last corner.
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Multiple simultaneous joseki
gasana wrote:
why tenuki if the joseki end up in sente? you could just play it out (with tiger mouth i really don't think he can tenuki, the attack would be to good) and go to the last corner.


Essentially, because I was more certain of the advantage of having the last corner than of the disadvantage of tenuki-ing the corner.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Multiple simultaneous joseki
Some thoughts. :)
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