Life In 19x19 :: Approaching Corners and Playing Sides

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Approaching Corners and Playing Sides http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6917	Page 1 of 1

Author: Kirby [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:48 pm ]

Post subject: Approaching Corners and Playing Sides

Here's a common opening:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 6 . 0 8 . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm sure everyone here is aware of it. But what gets me is the last move of this sequence (:w14:). It doesn't surprise me to see this move - if I saw it in a pro game, I'd think that the purpose of the move was to work with white's 4-4 stone in the bottom right, and to counter the influence from the san-ren-sei...

But I don't play this way. Instead, I always play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . A . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I figure, if black responds with A, I'll play B, and it feels good to have been able to approach black's bottom right 4-4, with white stones laid out in the fuseki along the bottom of the board.

Of course, black can pincer, but white can double approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 5 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . C . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or maybe it's better to play 6 at C, the 3-3.

I guess this leaves me with two questions here:
1.) What is the order of "favorableness" for black in the following three positions?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2.) In general, I love to approach the corner in the fuseki, rather than playing a side star point, as discussed above. What makes the side star point a good move compared to approaching the corner? My desire to approach the corner is great.

Author:	Loons [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Approaching Corners and Playing Sides
I have a predilection for K4 because it makes me start to feel a bit happenin' as white. The other options entail more fighting in/with black's moyo; stylistically I prefer to fight within my own moyos. Edit: I'm not sure if this is sound theory or not, but I feel like waiting at first lets me aim at invasions later. It seems a kind of game.

Author: ez4u [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:52 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Approaching Corners and Playing Sides

From the latest GoGoD (summer 2012) there are 108 examples of this position. The continuations are as shown below. The only two in significant numbers are the approach and the bottom star point. Both yield roughly a 50-50 result (the number of games is way too small to consider percentages anything but a vague guide). So I guess it is another case of YMMV. :blackeye:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Continuations $$+ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . b c . . e . X . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$+ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +[/go]

Statistics:
108 matches (108/0), B: 47.2%, W: 52.8%

Wa: 77 (77), B 48.1% - W 51.9%
Wb: 22 (22), B 50.0% - W 50.0%
Wc: 5 (5), B 20.0% - W 80.0%
Wd: 2 (2), B 50.0% - W 50.0%
We: 2 (2), B 50.0% - W 50.0%

Just for reference there were two games with Gu Li as Black last year, played just a few days apart. In the first, Kong Jie as White played the star point. In the second, Xie He played the approach.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Kong Jie - Gu Li 24th Mingren, 2011-07-05 W+R $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 0 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Xie He - Gu Li, 13th China Agon-Kiriyama, 2011-07-11 W+R $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . 9 0 . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Mef [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Approaching Corners and Playing Sides
ez4u wrote: Just for reference there were two games with Gu Li as Black last year, played just a few days apart. In the first, Kong Jie as White played the star point. In the second, Xie He played the approach. I find it interesting that, regardless of the initial move played, they both almost immediately end up with the same ultimate formation on bottom Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc All roads lead to Rome $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`

Author:	Shaddy [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Approaching Corners and Playing Sides
For black: 1 is even, 2 is good (B plays R3), 3 is fine.

Author:	Kirby [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Approaching Corners and Playing Sides
Thanks for all of the discussion. It was particularly interesting to see that professionals play the way they do as described in ez4u's post. It looks like several ways are playable, but any ideas on the qualitative benefits and consequences of each of the choices?

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