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Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7482 |
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Author: | peppernut [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:56 am ] |
Post subject: | Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
Hi guys, I am working my way through Kageyama's "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" (really excellent book). Currently I'm on Chapter 9, Proper and Improper Moves. My understanding is that the proper move is the one suggested by the stones themselves. It's the move that is needed for the other stones to fully realize their usefulness. Most the examples were things like, capture a cutting stone cleanly (often at the end of a joseki), connect solidly against a peep, etc. But there's this one probe question that bugs me: Which is the proper move in the position? Kageyama says 'a'. I can see that 'b' is neither a solid move nor an extension, so that's out of the question for me. But I don't see why as Black you would want to let White tenuki twice in responding to this probe. If ![]() If we look at what Black gets after 'a', Black got 2 outside stones facing the top side, and he resolved some aji in the corner. ![]() ![]() It could also be that I'm overthinking this, and ![]() |
Author: | topazg [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
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Author: | skydyr [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
The idea behind responding to ![]() ![]() I think that what Kageyama is saying with ![]() ![]() If black can expect more points on the right side, or in the corner, than ![]() ![]() That said, if this probe is timed correctly, black should probably tenuki for the time being as well. EDIT: In retrospect, I am unsure if my comments about ![]() |
Author: | ez4u [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
My copy of Fundamentals is wandering somewhere in the house so I can't check. But IIRC, Kageyama is writing about the general idea of "proper" plays being ones that settle the aji in the position. These are not necessarily the next play. For example... Below White answers ![]() ![]() When things quiet down White does in fact go back and play Kageyama's "proper" move. |
Author: | Shaddy [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
To me, the "proper move" is a kind of move that you play to defend. It's a move that eliminates all aji, which leaves you with a thick position. |
Author: | peppernut [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
I think I'm getting it, thanks for your responses. Would it be too much to say that, in the example, Black owes a move? If that's true then what Kageyama must be saying is that ![]() The spectrum of urgency in these moves makes sense for me. At least, that there are different levels of urgency, and ![]() Yet even in the pro example, White has gone back quite soon to fix things after this probe. I guess I'm more surprised than anything else that such a probe demands 2 moves worth of responses! Obviously I should learn these variations. ![]() |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
You may wish to look at what I posted about Prophylaxis in the thread "Is sente efficiency". My suggestion was to read an excellent extract from a chess book but substitute "honte" for "prophylaxis". Honte is the Japanese for 'proper move'. 'Proper' is not ideal. The idea is more like '(safe and) sound' rather than simply 'correct'. You are preempting trouble by playing a necessary move early, and given that mindset you should be playing the safest move available. In short, a stitch in time saves nine. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
In the original what are "proper moves" and "improper moves"? 本手 (honte) and ウソ手 (usote)? |
Author: | peppernut [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
Thanks, that's an excellent post that I missed because it was in a thread with a long argument. Rowson's my absolute favorite chess author. "The Seven Deadly Chess Sins" gives so much practical advice for handling psychology, and the challenges you have to finding the right move over the board. Those are things that help with Go as well (even if you probably do need to play chess to understand that book). Honte as Prophylaxis is an interesting idea, and one that right now I can sorta see. I'll have to see if it makes sense in my own games. I think it could help a great deal in learning fighting and josekis (basically contact plays), but I'll have to play and do a lot of game review to try to keep an eye out for it. Up until now, the way I was undertanding 'honte' was just as the antonym of 'fancy'. Kageyama notes that amateurs, in an effort to try to be more efficient, can try too hard to play lightly and miss moves. Rowson similarly notes prophylactic thinking is to be aware of your opponent's plan in relation to your own. One could think of a bad improper move as being too fancy, one that disregards the possibilities open to your opponent, and that tries to do too much or at the wrong time. Both in Go and Chess, when you make a move you are trying to do something with the move (even moreso the case for strong amateurs), and that's the trap. |
Author: | jts [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
Bill Spight wrote: In the original what are "proper moves" and "improper moves"? 本手 (honte) and ウソ手 (usote)? Yes. A bit of google turned up the Japanese chapter titles. http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kkm3/e/39c4ada948 ... 7cea4279cb |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
jts wrote: Bill Spight wrote: In the original what are "proper moves" and "improper moves"? 本手 (honte) and ウソ手 (usote)? Yes. A bit of google turned up the Japanese chapter titles. http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kkm3/e/39c4ada948 ... 7cea4279cb Thanks. ![]() Translation is not easy, so this is not really a criticism. But we talk of Thank-you moves. For usote I kind of like You're-kidding moves. ![]() |
Author: | ez4u [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kageyama - "Proper and Improper Moves" question |
peppernut wrote: Thanks, that's an excellent post that I missed because it was in a thread with a long argument... Here, here! ![]() ![]() |
Author: | EdLee [ Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Quote: ...about Prophylaxis in the thread "Is sente efficiency". Here's the thread, post #91: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7456&start=80
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