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4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
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Author:  Dante31 [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Why is 6 a bad move?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . 2 . 3 . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I looked in all my joseki books and a few online sources and none of them address move 6, yet I keep seeing it played most often by 5k-3k in the opening phase. I have some idea as to why it is a mistake, but I am not 100% sure of the best way to answer it. Should black extend to a or play b after 6?

So the question is: what do you think of move 6 and how would you answer it?

Here are the usual joseki if white doesn't want to jump to 3-3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 2 . 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 5 O 4 8 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . X 3 7 . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  fwiffo [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B I'd take b
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . 2 . 3 . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this result is pretty good for black. Jumping up is usually not that good for white to begin with, and :w6: for :b7: is a bad exchange. It lets black solidly take the corner, and what does white get in exchange? Not much of a base, basically no territory, it doesn't help the influence situation... And black gets cash. White can try to counter-pincer :b3:, but he can't attack that strongly because the white group is not all that much stronger than it was before the :w6:- :b7: exchange.

And if you continue with the usual joseki where you press down...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Not good
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O a 3 . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . b 2 1 5 7 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . X 4 6 . 8 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The exchange of the marked stones is bad because if black cuts at a/b, white no longer has the choice of taking the 3-3, as would be the case with the usual joseki. White would never trade :wc: for :bc: after :w9:.
Author:  Dante31 [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
The most probable answer, and one that I see played, is the counter pincer at a (just like you noted):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B I'd take b
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . 2 . 3 . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think after the counter pincer the best answer for black would be something like this (if there is a black stone in the lower corner):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . 2 . 3 . . O . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe even:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . 2 . 3 . . O . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What do you think? Forcing white to play one more move to not get split and black starts to secure the corner. Any better move for this case?
Author:  fwiffo [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
Seems reasonable, but I'd like to get a stronger player's view. In any event, if white counter-pincers, he ends up attacking his own group just by chasing out black's stone. White can't even threaten to connect underneath because black has the peep.
Author:  Dante31 [ Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
fwiffo wrote:
Seems reasonable, but I'd like to get a stronger player's view. In any event, if white counter-pincers, he ends up attacking his own group just by chasing out black's stone. White can't even threaten to connect underneath because black has the peep.


If you mean black jumps out, then I think it might be more of a burden for black since black's group has no eyes/space at all, white can make a 2 space extension in sente at a (I don't think black will want to tenuki), so white doesn't have a problem of '2 weak groups split by black's one weak group':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . 2 . 3 . . O . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I second your opinion on waiting to see what stronger players have to say. I can't think of any better move myself.
Author:  topazg [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
AFAIK, the normal line is as fwiffo described, but without the corner exchange. This is particularly the case if Black has a 4-4 in the lower right corner too, as being pressed down low on the bottom edge becomes an unhappy result for him. The counter pincer just seems like playing with fire to me - if everyone starts running across the board, Black will be pocketing 4th line territory on the left. White can't want to force that situation.
Author:  zazie [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
If white plays the counter-pincer, i think black has to jump. His group is not strong, but with the two weak white groups it's pretty normal to play this way.
Author:  Harleqin [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
The basic problem with that slide is that it does not completely settle the group, but gives up the corner invasion. If you still have that invasion, you can treat the outside much more lightly.

Black should simply answer at 3-3.

Fwiffo has already shown how White has trouble after pressing Black down on the the lower side. On the other hand, any counter pincer will be the same as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . 7 . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w6: extends too far, :b7: is a natural invasion, and :w8: is a bit slack.
Author:  flOvermind [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
fwiffo wrote:
And if you continue with the usual joseki where you press down...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Not good
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O a 3 . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . b 2 1 5 7 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . X 4 6 . 8 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The exchange of the marked stones is bad because if black cuts at a/b, white no longer has the choice of taking the 3-3, as would be the case with the usual joseki. White would never trade :wc: for :bc: after :w9:.


I think that's the main reason why the exchange is considered bad. Just compare the continuations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ The two white stones are dead, black has a huge corner.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 O . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 1 X O O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . X X X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ White is cut and has two weak groups.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 3 O . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 1 X O O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . X X X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Now without the exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Ok.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 O . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 1 X O O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . W . X X X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can treat the single marked stone lightly and invade the corner.


Note that in my diagrams, a white move is missing. That means that white has sente in the joseki, but as you can see from the horrible results in the first two diagrams, white can't really afford to tenuki when the exchange has been made.
Author:  amnal [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
flOvermind wrote:
I think that's the main reason why the exchange is considered bad. Just compare the continuations:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ The two white stones are dead, black has a huge corner.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 O . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 1 X O O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . X X X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This continuation seems incorrect. The following is probably harsher - black has more, white is not better than before:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ This, or see EDIT below for probably slightly better alternative
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 1 O . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 X O O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . X X X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I looked up the original slide once, and was surprised at the frequency in professional games. In around 2.5% of the games, white slides and then makes a close counterpincer (though this ignores the surrounding situation). In around 10% of the games, white slides and then does *something*, counterpincer or not. I think this line, although traditionally bad for white, probably has some powerful specific uses in a fight - perhaps preventing black kicking white's original approach if white wants to pincer anyway.

EDIT:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ The two white stones are dead, black has a huge corner.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 1 O . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 5 3 X O O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O . X X X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Perhaps black should play this 5 just to prevent the white atari, which is pretty good for white. The single stone probably isn't worth the points this gives up.
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
simple answer:
knight's move is an example of an aji keshi.
it will solidify the corner and it will make your stone heavier.
my feeling says you lose about 3 points(may be more) going with knight's move variation.
Author:  gowan [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
If the slide loses White 3 to 5 points then it's no surprise that sdk players play it so much. The opponent will have a hard time keeping the gain from that level of mistake so Black doesn't seem to suffer a loss from it.
Author:  judicata [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 4-4 Pincer Joseki Question
A pro game database search indicates that the move does show up in pro games, though it may be a part of a some special strategy. The most common response is the one you give. White's most common follow up is a counter-pincer.
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