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Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11318		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  tekesta [ Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
For those just beginning to learn the game on a scholastic basis, would playing under the old Chinese rules on a part-time basis be beneficial in the long run? I believe that one significant benefit would be strengthened middle game and endgame skills. This is the article that led me to ask this question. http://www.oklahoma-go-players.org/?p=272
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Getting outside your comfort zone helps, so I don't think this could hurt as a way to play some of the time.
Author:  Bantari [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Regular go not challenging enough?
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Which, if any, is better, diagonal star points

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Diagonal star points
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or parallel star points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Parallel star points
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Somewhat surprisingly, we can answer this question. We may not be able to say that one is better than the other. In fact, by symmetry the average value of each is zero. But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White enforces parallel star points
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If diagonal star points is better for Black, White can enforce parallel star points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black enforces parallel star points
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If diagonal star points is better for White, Black can enforce parallel star points.

Observation by Herb Doughty. :)
Author:  tekesta [ Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Bantari wrote:
Regular go not challenging enough?
Rather, the opposite. Go on an empty board is challenging enough. Still, revisiting older varieties of the game can refresh our understanding thereof.

I think playing under Classical Chinese rules on a scholastic basis would be beneficial for several reasons. One, despite the tactical and strategic richness of Classical Chinese Go, it is hardly played by anyone these days, as just about everyone practices the Japanese form of the game. That is, the empty-board form. (Playing Go on an empty board is a Japanese innovation.) Thus, the intense competition and commercialism associated nowadays with the regular form of Go is not present.

I believe it is possible to cut one's teeth on classical Chinese Go and still be able to play the empty-board game. One major difference would be that the latter feels different due to greater flexibility in the opening and difference in scoring procedure. Fighting is of high importance when playing classical Chinese style, so this would be good to develop the tactical abilities of beginners.

I'll post more after others have had their turn to speak :)
Author:  Uberdude [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
tekesta wrote:
Thus, the intense competition and commercialism associated nowadays with the regular form of Go is not present.


When I play Go I don't notice this. Does a South Korean phone company sponsoring a team in a Korean baduk league really affect me? I like being able to play the opening moves where I wish. But I have also played in some sunjang baduk tournaments which were fun.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
The difference is so small as to be negligible. The placement stones have a very small impact, which mostly disappears at the amateur level. Fighting is equally important with or without those stones, and playing with them will not teach you anything that you would not learn from a regular game.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Uberdude wrote:
I have also played in some sunjang baduk tournaments which were fun.


I think that the sunjang baduk setup does lead to fighting go, especially in the center. :) OC, sunjang baduk counting is quite different from any other form of counting. Playing it with a familiar form of scoring is fine. :)
Author:  mitsun [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Bill Spight wrote:
But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

Not true at all. If the parallel opening is better for one player, then the diagonal opening is better for the other player. The only logically correct statement is that in a game between two perfect players, if one opening is better than the other, the diagonal opening will not be played. A corrolary is that if one opening is better than the other, and a diagonal opening is played, one player has already made a mistake (but we do not know which one).
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
mitsun wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

Not true at all. If the parallel opening is better for one player, then the diagonal opening is better for the other player. The only logically correct statement is that in a game between two perfect players, if one opening is better than the other, the diagonal opening will not be played. A corrolary is that if one opening is better than the other, and a diagonal opening is played, one player has already made a mistake (but we do not know which one).


Parallel star points dominates diagonal star points. That is what I mean by parallel star points being better. Not better for Black or White, just better. If diagonal star points is better for Black, then playing the adjacent star point and allowing Black to play the diagonal star point would be a mistake for White. White can avoid that mistake. If diagonal star points is better for White, then playing the diagonal star point would be a mistake for Black. Black can avoid that mistake. So if there is a difference between parallel star points and diagonal star points, and the players play diagonal star points, then somebody has made a mistake. That's what I mean by parallel star points being better.
Author:  oren [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Bill Spight wrote:
Parallel star points dominates diagonal star points. That is what I mean by parallel star points being better. Not better for Black or White, just better. If diagonal star points is better for Black, then playing the adjacent star point and allowing Black to play the diagonal star point would be a mistake for White. White can avoid that mistake. If diagonal star points is better for White, then playing the diagonal star point would be a mistake for Black. Black can avoid that mistake. So if there is a difference between parallel star points and diagonal star points, and the players play diagonal star points, then somebody has made a mistake. That's what I mean by parallel star points being better.


But you don't know who made the mistake... white for allowing a diagonal opening or black for taking it. Even if parallel may be better, black may be making a mistake by not taking the diagonal opening opportunity.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
oren wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Parallel star points dominates diagonal star points. That is what I mean by parallel star points being better. Not better for Black or White, just better. If diagonal star points is better for Black, then playing the adjacent star point and allowing Black to play the diagonal star point would be a mistake for White. White can avoid that mistake. If diagonal star points is better for White, then playing the diagonal star point would be a mistake for Black. Black can avoid that mistake. So if there is a difference between parallel star points and diagonal star points, and the players play diagonal star points, then somebody has made a mistake. That's what I mean by parallel star points being better.


But you don't know who made the mistake.


Yeah, isn't that great? :D
Author:  Bantari [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Bill Spight wrote:
Somewhat surprisingly, we can answer this question. We may not be able to say that one is better than the other. In fact, by symmetry the average value of each is zero. But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

This is confusing to me. What you say "better" what do you mean by that? Better for whom? Better in what sense?

Here is what I am thinking. Look at the following position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Diagonal or parallel?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what it boils down to. Can we say that Black should now play (a)? Or is (b) better? And why?
The same can be said for White's second move. Can we say (1) is better than (a)?
Do we want to say any of that, anyways?

Unless we can answer such questions, we cannot say that one is better than the other. Only that - yes, each player can prevent diagonal fuseki. But this means nothing. By the same token, you can say that both players can always prevent, for example, chinese fuseki, or san-ren-sei. Does that make ni-ren-sei in any way "better" than either of the two?

Same can be said for pretty much any sequence we ever play, like jokes for example. Each player can always prevent any given specific variation from happening - simply by deviating from it. Does that mean other variations are somehow "better"?

I don't get this line of reasoning.
Unless it is just a gimmick to get the juices flowing.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.
Author:  oren [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
HermanHiddema wrote:
The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.


But since we're imperfect, we don't know if the diagonal play is better or worse. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Bantari wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Somewhat surprisingly, we can answer this question. We may not be able to say that one is better than the other. In fact, by symmetry the average value of each is zero. But we can say that if one is better than the other, it is parallel star points. The reason is that, given the choice between the two, each player can enforce parallel star points.

This is confusing to me. What you say "better" what do you mean by that? Better for whom? Better in what sense?

Here is what I am thinking. Look at the following position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Diagonal or parallel?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what it boils down to. Can we say that Black should now play (a)? Or is (b) better? And why?


What we can say is that if one is better than the other, it is (b) unless :w1: is a mistake.

Quote:
The same can be said for White's second move. Can we say (1) is better than (a)?


We can say that if one is a mistake, it is (1).

Quote:
Do we want to say any of that, anyways?


If we want to avoid a mistake, even at the cost of preventing a mistake by the opponent, we play for the parallel star points.

Quote:
By the same token, you can say that both players can always prevent, for example, chinese fuseki, or san-ren-sei. Does that make ni-ren-sei in any way "better" than either of the two?


You cannot always answer such questions. For instance, which diagram is better?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Sanrensei vs. sanrensei
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wedge vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If this is the question before us, only Black gets to choose between the two. Therefore we cannot say which is better with that kind of argument.
Author:  Bantari [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
HermanHiddema wrote:
The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.

The same can be said for most openings. And for most sequences in general.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Bantari wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
The idea is: Since both players can prevent the diagonal opening, then if it occurs and is better for either of them, the other player has made a mistake. Therefore, if a diagonal opening is better for either player, it can never occur in perfect play.

The same can be said for most openings. And for most sequences in general.


The same cannot be said for most openings and sequences. The point is that each player must be able to guarantee something. Here, each player can guarantee a parallel opening. And miai is involved.

Above I showed how only Black can guarantee sanrensei, given parallel star points. But there is a miai that each player can enforce, given parallel star points, and play only on the star points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Miai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And that is that one player gets the top side star point and the other player gets the other one, no matter who gets the right or left sides.

That means that in these positions:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Sanrensei vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Sanrensei vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Somebody may have made a mistake.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
Thus, if we restrict ourselves to play on the star points and play corners before sides, there are only two fuseki patterns that we need to learn. Each player can enforce one or the other.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yonrensei vs. yonrensei
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Wedge vs. wedge
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I submit that, if we start with setup stones for training, these are the two patterns to practice. :)
Author:  tekesta [ Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing under Classical Chinese Rules
So far I am encouraged by the posts on this thread :) Since beginners are not likely to have a good command of the opening, preset opening patterns are a good way to begin learning how to use advantages offered by a particular opening pattern. Japanese-style handicap has the benefit of demonstrating good opening setups.

However, as I've mentioned before some players rely on strong opening skills and neglect to develop middle game fighting and this can be a real drag when one plays against an opponent with strong reading ability and a compulsion to attack. This is one reason why I suggested playing Classical Chinese style; the prevalence of weak groups is often conducive to a fighting game. Watching out for and shoring up weak groups is a vital skill for those aspiring to reach shodan. There is no need to play under classical Chinese rules exclusively. Even on a part-time basis this can serve as a useful supplement to a study régime centered on the regular game.

It would be nice if there were a small group of players that played under Classical Chinese rules most or all of the time, but that is a topic for another thread, I guess.

Another alternative is just to play even (on an empty board) and give the less experienced side a reverse komi of, say, 15 points per stone of handicap.
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