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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:22 pm 
Gosei
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RobertJasiek wrote:

The question is whether MOST players can. Anyway, my point is that at most 10 books suffice for most players.


The important point, what I (and presumably others) disagree with, is not the part when you say that (most) people can advanced to 5k with (at most) 10 books - this seems obvious to everybody, I think. The problem is that you also state that people cannot get stronger than 5k with only 10 books - which I think is an utter nonsense. Especially if, as you yourself seem to admit - other forms of study are not only allowed but also required, either way.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #22 Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:22 pm 
Judan

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Bantari wrote:
The problem is that you also state that people cannot get stronger than 5k with only 10 books


Uh, this appears to be a misunderstanding:) Also there, I refer to "most" players! (Surely, there can be those going farther with their first 10 books.)

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #23 Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:12 pm 
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20 years ago I was 2 kyu EGF (closer to 1 kyu I think) without reading a Go book. I don't count briefly skipping through Davies's Life and Death which was extremely boring for me at that time.

But I played a lot with dan players, asked questions, went to couple of tournaments, ...

There are many ways to skin a cat.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #24 Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:27 pm 
Gosei
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Bantari wrote:
The problem is that you also state that people cannot get stronger than 5k with only 10 books


Uh, this appears to be a misunderstanding:) Also there, I refer to "most" players! (Surely, there can be those going farther with their first 10 books.)


RobertJasiek wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
just that go and chess aren't the kind of things that you can sum up in a small number (10 or so) of books for most players.

For go and up to EGF 5k, it is possible. Above 5k: no.


This seems to be pretty clear: according to you, it is not possible to advance above 5k with 10 books or so.
If I got it wrong, explain.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #25 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:09 am 
Judan

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Bantari wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
just that go and chess aren't the kind of things that you can sum up in a small number (10 or so) of books for MOST players.

For go and up to EGF 5k, it is possible. Above 5k: no.


This seems to be pretty clear: according to you, it is not possible to advance above 5k with 10 books or so.
If I got it wrong, explain.


Please note the emphasis. Therefore "Above 5k: no." means "With fewer than 10 books, IMO, probably not MOST players advance beyond EGF 5k.

BTW, how many books to make everybody 1d or 1p would be other interesting questions.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #26 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 am 
Tengen

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RobertJasiek wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
What exactly are we judging about these books?


"Would they probably suffice to turn most of their readers from absolute beginners to EGF 5 kyu?" (The players must a) play regularly and think about their moves, b) learn from their mistakes and c) learn the books' knowledge to apply it in their games. The players may get other advice, such as talks with other players or advice from club teachers.)
So the question presumes that most players would not reach 5 kyu following the same path without the books, and most players would reach 5 kyu following that path with the books, no? Or, at a minimum, that substantially more players would reach 5 kyu with the books than without.

Otherwise, there's an air of triviality.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #27 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:16 am 
Gosei
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Please note the emphasis. Therefore "Above 5k: no." means "With fewer than 10 books, IMO, probably not MOST players advance beyond EGF 5k.


Oh, you are implying in your words emphasis taken from what you quote. Ok then, I can see it.
What you are saying is that, for most people, it is not possible to reach above 5k with 10 or less books.

I admit that this is a slightly different statement than I initially thought you made. My bad.

However - I still strongly disagree - and examples abound, me being one of them. I would say that pretty much everybody can make it to a much higher level without any books at all, provided they have a good teacher, appropriate competition, and good discipline and help in going over their own games and mistakes. Books help, but they are by no means a necessary factor in order for anybody to reach whatever level they want to reach.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #28 Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:57 am 
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Bantari wrote:
I mean - this is ridiculous.
Robert - you are widely known (at least to me, heh) as making wild but (un)authoritative statements with nothing to support them but your own perception, and this is a good example.

Show me the proof, the numbers, the studies... show me somebody who did that and then prove its not an outlier. .


You know that we dont have acceptable researches results in this area. So we can have only "best guess" advices/opinions. And in this area i think Robert´s opinions are o.k. And i think we can give him credit for serious thinking about this because it is crucial part of his book writing process. I dont think that all his writing on forum in this area is only aggresive marketing. Ofc some forums members disagree :twisted:

I am old enough and not from western/english speaking world to remember problems with books or at least usable information for study outside of rulebook and handicap play book. And Robert´s list is what our group needed most when started. Even when i started teaching my sons his list is similar to my own teaching experience.
Only thing where i disagree with him is tsumego/tesuji problems study. We have enough application for solving problems in all levels of difficulty that you can start right after basic rules knowledge and never stop.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 books to reach 5 kyu, more books beyond
Post #29 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:09 am 
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Many many players reach 5kyu without touching a book in their life...

Is the question suggested reading to HELP get to 5kyu and beyond ? If so.. the list is completely valid.

As stated.. playing games.. watching kibitz.. getting thru online L&D problems and playing more games seems to be more than enough for most people.

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