Raising the Standard of Western Go

EdLee · **#61**

Bantari wrote:

Let me try to be a little controversial here and ask the simple question: Why?
Why are we trying to raise the standard/level/whatever or western Go?

I actually know why we do it... And whatever we do, I will support.

Bantari, sorry for jumping back to an old post --
I'm curious to hear your view on the why. (Unless you already posted it and I missed it?) Thanks.

Bantari wrote:

I always liked to believe that Kitani somehow did teach his students directly, if not through games then through analysis and discussions of specific ideas and stuff... Something that made his school special and personal to him. In spite all the things I hear to the contrary. The same pretty much goes for other pro teachers.

I also know very little about the Kitani school, but my feeling is the same as yours here.
Related: documentary about Fujisawa's Training sessions
and the other NHK documentary (dubbed in English), also about Fujisawa.

EdLee · **#62**

tekesta wrote:

And just why would anyone [...] want their kids to spend so much time studying a game that, at least to the parents, may appear to be a waste of time and space?
...
Although a digression from the topic, this article might serve to show, through another lens, one reason why baduk has not yet taken off in the West.

From the article:

Quote:

To [a certain demographic] in America, basketball is much more than a sport -- it is a form of education and ... .

(My edits and emphases.)
Tekesta, not only is that not a digression, but I think you hit a vital point
(also related to HermanHiddema's note on western culture).

RobertJasiek · **#63**

tekesta wrote:

Theory books would be for those just entering SDK level.

For which purpose would you want to restrict the range of levels of theory books?! Theory books with theory for players entering SDK level are mainly for them. Theory books with theory for weaker, stronger or much stronger players are for those. Theory books with theory for a wide range of players are for everybody in that range.

Bantari · **#64**

EdLee wrote:

Bantari, sorry for jumping back to an old post --
I'm curious to hear your view on the why. (Unless you already posted it and I missed it?) Thanks.

Hi Ed... thanks very much for putting me on the spot like that, heh.
Fine, let me rumble!

First of all, let me tell you what I do not believe. I do not believe that for most of us anything would really change in terms of our playing if we doubled or tripled the number of western players. Or if we started generating 5 times as many dans as we do now... We all can already get any kind of game any time we want, pretty much anywhere... The notion of 'more books' is also invalid, I think, on the face value. We have plenty of books... more than I can afford at the moment. So when speaking of books/materials, we need to qualify some more, as I do below. Still, the above reasons, and similar ones, are the ones given almost universally when you ask this question. And I do, believe me.

Overall, I think Go has reached the level at which each of us can jump into this pool and never have to fear to reach the bottom - there will always be room for improvement and the opportunities as well.

So, now to my attempt to answer the question.
Of course I have to extrapolate from my own feelings/reasons, but I think what I say also apply to wider population, in one form or another.

We strive to popularize Go, or raise its standard, because Go has given so much to all of us, we want to give something back as well. We want to be a part of the great adventure of Go because we love this game, plain and simple. And being part of it means not only play play play, take take take - but also give give give, being involved in all things AROUND Go. Like teaching beginners, designing flyers, organizing tournaments, researching rules, whatever... I think it is deeply personal, and possibly slightly different for all of us. The game is our mistress and we have the need keep her smiling... Because this is what makes us satisfied. I believe this is the deep core of all of it, one way or another. Ultimately, we do what we do because if is fun!

I believe that if we keep a firm eye on the above, there will be much less trouble in our small community.

As for pragmatic reasons... there are materials, take books for example. I said there are more out there that anybody can read, maybe its true maybe it is not... but what is lacking, as some have said, is a lot of books of quality, although there are some. There are certain areas which are largely missing from the bookshelf. For example - biographies of great players, game collections, really good commentaries of lower-level games, stuff like that. A lot of stuff does not make it to the western audiences because the market is too small. A lot of stuff never gets written...

There are also selfish reasons - and there is nothing wrong with that. Example? Money. Go teachers and publishers - they have a financial interest in there being more business. Tournament organizers know there would be more sponsors if the game was more popular - which would make for better events. Organizations, like AGA - which are crucial to Go being at the level it is (and growing) - would have a much easier way to do whatever the heck they do if they had more funds - which means more members and more sponsors. And so on... Then there is Pride. Let me stop here... but most of all can fill in the blanks, I am sure.

So this is what I think. What's more, I think it is important that we are really honest and aware of why we do what we do. Most of it implies the journey being more important than the destination. When it comes to Go, this is a big part of what I believe in. Take rank for example... I know I will never be a pro - and that goes for most of us as well... might never even get above the rank which I have now, and which is lower than it was a few years back. But I'd go nuts thinking about that... I rather do what I can to enjoy the journey, just have fun, and do not cloud my path by unreasonable goals and expectations.

Ok, that's it.

hyperpape · **#65**

We can get any kind of game? Do you mean on the Internet? According to igolocal, there was one other player, a 30 kyu, in my current city. Of course, not everyone was on igolocal, but I didn't know about anyone else in my town from the tournaments that were held in the state capitol an hour away.

Bantari · **#66**

hyperpape wrote:

We can get any kind of game? Do you mean on the Internet? According to igolocal, there was one other player, a 30 kyu, in my current city. Of course, not everyone was on igolocal, but I didn't know about anyone else in my town from the tournaments that were held in the state capitol an hour away.

Its like complaining that there is no movie theaters close by when all movies are streaming to your laptop... or there is no bookstore while you get what you need from Kindle store. I know quite a few dan players who neither own a real-life board nor ever played on one - nor apparently have any need to do that.

We are dinosaurs, my friend, and catering to our needs is not always the right way for the world to move forward.

But I hear ya...

Bonobo · **#67**

Dinosaurs … mh…

I’d compare it to cybersex – might be nice to have in case a real partner is not available

And so I prefer teaching youngsters Go In Real Life™ hoping that they multiply it so someday I have enough Real Life™ players and don’t have to resort to cyber~~sex~~go.

Splatted · **#68**

Bantari wrote:

Its like complaining that there is no movie theaters close by when all movies are streaming to your laptop... or there is no bookstore while you get what you need from Kindle store.

Aren't those both reasonable complaints...?

EdLee · **#69**

Bantari, thanks for your thoughts and the long post.

Bantari · **#70**

Splatted wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Its like complaining that there is no movie theaters close by when all movies are streaming to your laptop... or there is no bookstore while you get what you need from Kindle store.

Aren't these both reasonable complaints...?

Sure they are.
Just like wishing for a real life go player in the vicinity is reasonable.

But - this is not the way the world is rolling.
And certainly not the way next generations are growing up - thus: dinosaurs.
And I think it is good so, some nostalgia notwithstanding. We would not have this discussion if what I say was not true.

Anyways - this is just my perspective on things, and please do not read too much into it. As it stands, since people start using this thread to invoke cybersex and trying to trademark real life, I better back out of this room and start reading some other stuff for a change. You can agree with me or not, but I stated what I think. Not much else to add.

Bonobo · **#71**

Bantari wrote:

[..] since people

“People”, eh? Please allow me to introduce myself (not that I didn’t already do this in the appropriate place): I’m Tom, in Germany

Quote:

start using this thread to invoke cybersex

Mh… “invoke”, for me it was just a funny little comparison. But I don’t really know cybersex while I know internet Go (a little).

Quote:

and trying to trademark real life,

Guess you didn’t find that funny <shrug> Anyway, it was NOT my intention to water this thread down and take it off-topic. Either you only read “cybersex” and “Real Life™”, or somehow I wasn’t able to transmit to you what I wanted to say.

Quote:

I better back out of this room

But why? I am such a dinosaur, and I try to do something for my own sustained enjoyment of Go: I believe it’s contagious and so I expose kids to Go. I don’t see this as a contradiction to any of what you said, nor was I actually disagreeing with what you wrote (I didn’t even refer to most of that). And I also want to just enjoy playing … preferably with Real Life people <shrug>

Quote:

and start reading some other stuff for a change. You can agree with me or not, but I stated what I think. Not much else to add.

Nothing against reading

Peace, Tom

Bantari · **#72**

Bonobo wrote:

Bantari wrote:

[..] since people

“People”, eh? Please allow me to introduce myself (not that I didn’t already do this in the appropriate place): I’m Tom, in Germany

Quote:

start using this thread to invoke cybersex

Mh… “invoke”, for me it was just a funny little comparison. But I don’t really know cybersex while I know internet Go (a little).

Quote:

and trying to trademark real life,

Guess you didn’t find that funny <shrug> Anyway, it was NOT my intention to water this thread down and take it off-topic. Either you only read “cybersex” and “Real Life™”, or somehow I wasn’t able to transmit to you what I wanted to say.

Quote:

I better back out of this room

But why? I am such a dinosaur, and I try to do something for my own sustained enjoyment of Go: I believe it’s contagious and so I expose kids to Go. I don’t see this as a contradiction to any of what you said, nor was I actually disagreeing with what you wrote (I didn’t even refer to most of that). And I also want to just enjoy playing … preferably with Real Life people <shrug>

Quote:

and start reading some other stuff for a change. You can agree with me or not, but I stated what I think. Not much else to add.

Nothing against reading

Peace, Tom

Hi Tom, I'm back, just for you.

Sorry for the cheap shots, did not mean to press any buttons. Just had a rough day at work and am probably more irky than usual.

I know what you mean, and even share the sentiment... Have said so myself in the past, on occasion. I just learned to consider it a losing battle, no matter how the few of us want to turn back the clock. Will not happen. And anyways - this is only a fringe-remark when you consider what I was trying to say, maybe not very skillfully myself. Did not intend my answer to Ed to spark so much controversy... and certainly did not want to get bogged down into this sideline...

As for cybersex... being in a happy relationship since almost before the internet (or my foray into the internet at least) - I am not an expert on that subject. I heard that its like with Hitler - once this creeps into the conversation, the thread is dead. And yes, I did not get the trademark joke. But no biggie... I don't get most of the stuff happening around me these days.

Aten · **#73**

Bantari: The notion of 'more books' is also invalid, I think, on the face value. We have plenty of books... more than I can afford at the moment. So when speaking of books/materials, we need to qualify some more, as I do below.

I think the more books the better really. Until you get 95% of the best material from Japan translated into English, it's going to be just like Chess where the best material was in German and later in Russian.

[and Alekhine read his German chess books, and Fischer his Russian ones]

Mind you, it's pretty difficult for most in the west to figure out which of the books are classics from 1935 at the earliest, to probably the stuff 1955 onwards...

I think if the literature is there, the rest takes care of itself.

but for now, i'm waiting for a timeline with pictures, so far tchan is doing the best job so far, and his efforts are probably going to help the situation decades from now, showing that if people know that the stuff is 'out there', people will 'want it', and heck some might even wish for a translation one day..

tekesta · **#74**

RobertJasiek wrote:

For which purpose would you want to restrict the range of levels of theory books?! Theory books with theory for players entering SDK level are mainly for them. Theory books with theory for weaker, stronger or much stronger players are for those. Theory books with theory for a wide range of players are for everybody in that range.

I should have explained this in a bit more detail :oops:

Allow me to begin by saying that scientists usually formulate theories based on observation. Wouldn't relative newcomers to the game of Go be more receptive to a theoretical explanation after observing - and experiencing - the game firsthand?

At DDK level most players do not have the background experience to make sense of any theory beyond the rules of the game, a few basic techniques (e.g., nobi, keima, ôgeima, tsuke), and capturing races plus basic life & death, so the explanations should be kept to a minimum and training in the form of problems should be emphasized, in addition to playing games. Once the player has gained more experience with which to compare new theoretical explanations, then it is practical to include more information. Fuseki training would depend on whether the beginner plays on handicap against stronger players with okigo (black stones arranged in a prescribed pattern on star points) or free stone placement plus a big reverse komi. If the former, the beginner should learn how to play a thickness-based game, since openings on star points lend themselves better to playing for influence than for territory. If the latter, the beginner should begin learning a few common opening patterns and become familiar with their possibilities.

tekesta · **#75**

Aten wrote:

I think the more books the better really. Until you get 95% of the best material from Japan translated into English, it's going to be just like Chess where the best material was in German and later in Russian.

[and Alekhine read his German chess books, and Fischer his Russian ones]

Perhaps the best book on weiqi I ever saw was an untranslated Chinese edition. I need to go back and look at it. I find the Chinese weiqi books to be very well written. Yutopian's English translations of Chinese publications I regard highly.

Quote:

but for now, i'm waiting for a timeline with pictures, so far tchan is doing the best job so far, and his efforts are probably going to help the situation decades from now, showing that if people know that the stuff is 'out there', people will 'want it', and heck some might even wish for a translation one day..

Weiqi materials of Japanese origin have been promoted quite heavily so far. It would be good if materials of Chinese and Korean origin were promoted heavily as well. This would help increase the variety of English translations available here in the West.

Hikaru no Go was and still is a catalyst for interest in the game among young people, but I find it disconcerting that this should serve as the only way for most young people here in the West to encounter the game. In the West Go is still regarded as a Japanese game, even though it originated in China. I'm sure that if more people could get to know the Chinese origins of weiqi and the current state of the game in China, fewer of them would be less prone to consider weiqi as a game only for university geniuses or anime aficionados with a strong love for all things Japanese.

tekesta · **#76**

@Bonobo: It would be nice to be in any Western country and be able to go only a few kilometers to find someone with whom to play weiqi in person. Until then, however, many of us will have to use internet connections to play the game. If teaching weiqi to kids, make their first experience a very fun one. On this point I wonder if "Capture Go" is good to show them how everything in weiqi is based on eating and being eaten (capturing and being captured). One begins by learning how to capture a single stone, then two stones, then three, along with techniques for executing captures a touch further down the line, such as cutting up one large group into smaller ones. Along the way one notices that if the group is allowed to grow too large, it takes many moves to capture it, so it might make just as much sense to make one's own groups hard or impossible to capture as well as to capture the opponent's groups. In other words, you can try to capture my stones, but make sure I don't capture yours! Once they've learned a bit about capturing stones, you can show how opening moves are related to the need to avoid being captured, namely that one wants enough open space on the board to grow big enough to avoid getting captured. Finally, you teach that the side with the bigger combined groups is the winner. Hopefully this info helps you to formulate a pedagogy for teaching weiqi to young kids.

tekesta · **#77**

EdLee wrote:

Tekesta, not only is that not a digression, but I think you hit a vital point (also related to HermanHiddema's note on western culture).

Which vital point are you referring to, if I have the privilege of knowing? (It would make good food for thought

)

I thought the connection between the contents of that article and the very low popularity of weiqi in the US and other Western countries was rather remote. I've realized that today's NBA basketball has a gladiatorial feel that, among US audiences, would not be felt in weiqi. Sometimes in tennis and not very much in golf, but never in weiqi. The story of basketball in America is the story of an underdog demographic overcoming social and cultural barriers to achieve spectacular success. A dramatic example of the American Dream in action, if you will.

The advertising campaigns of the NFL and NBA merit much study, IMHO. It's not enough to simply have a pre-existing cultural preference for a sport. The people must always be reminded of its presence in a way that they find agreeable and exciting.

billywoods · **#78**

Splatted wrote:

Aren't those both reasonable complaints...?

I don't think books or cinemas will die out any more than real handwritten letters will succumb to emails, or gobans will die at the hands of KGS. The smell and feel of a new book, the nostalgic taste of cinema popcorn, the sense of shared experience in going to watch a film in a group - those things, if you like them, are irreplaceable. But it depends what you want. If what you want is just to play go, you can get that anywhere. If you prefer the idea of go as a relaxed, sociable game that you play with a group of friends or at a club just before going to the pub, and KGS leaves you slightly cold, then that's fair enough - me too - but this thread is about improving the standard of western go, and I don't think people like us are particularly relevant in that setting.

daal · **#79**

Bantari wrote:

I do not believe that for most of us anything would really change in terms of our playing if we doubled or tripled the number of western players.

Quote:

...no matter how the few of us want to turn back the clock. Will not happen.

It's not a matter of turning back the clock. Sure, the internet is here to stay, and everything including go and go players is at everyone's fingertips, but that doesn't mean that people have stopped wanting to meet in person (hence the cybersex joke). Raising the standard of Western go might not immediately correlate to more people playing it - but it could certainly be a step in that direction. Doubling or tripling the people at the go clubs (which do in fact still exist) would indeed be a change.

EdLee · **#80**

Tekesta, it's the difference in the general public's perception/understanding. underlined.

Raising the Standard of Western Go

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