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Rumour on Reading http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11339 |
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Author: | RobertJasiek [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Rumour on Reading |
Quotation reference: viewtopic.php?p=172152#p172152 Krama wrote: Nobody every told me how to read, as it is something you must figure out yourself. But it is damn hard to read moves ahead if they don't seem natural or simple. [...] It seems that you can give a good guideline for anything related to go study, but when asked on how to practice reading the answer is always, to read. Exactly. There are countless of problem books but they hardly teach how to read, and their readers are supposed to already know it. Currently, in the English literature, there are only the short Reading chapters in First Fundamentals (ch. 10) and Tesuji (Davies, ch. 1). However, I have good news for you: I am writing a book that is solely devoted to learning how to read! |
Author: | snorri [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
I haven't read "First Fundamentals" but the Davies' Tesuji treatment is mostly just depth-first search of a finite graph. That's great when the problem is closed and simple enough for one's skill level, and no doubt it's a skill worth working on, but it doesn't characterize most game positions which are more open and evaluating common lines of play starts to be become useful. I'd be interested in learning more about how reading relates to risk management, given the reality that our reading skills and available time in a game are both limited. For example, I have seen commentaries to the effect of "black might consider continuing here, but the position is complex and there is no way to know whether black can get out in sente, so black played over here instead." Such a comment is really just a frank admission that the author's (and maybe also the players') reading is limited, but there is still a need to manage the position somehow. Another example: when reading out a sequence in the mind's eye, there could be a path where at some point the opponent can cut---the shape makes it looks a bit unreasonable to do that, but due to limited skill and/or time it is hard to see what happens after that cut. Many players would just play it out and hope for the best. ![]() So to me, both improving the raw skills and also being able to manage the position while acknowledging limited reading are important. I've read very little in English on either topic. |
Author: | skydyr [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
snorri wrote: I haven't read "First Fundamentals" but the Davies' Tesuji treatment is mostly just depth-first search of a finite graph. That's great when the problem is closed and simple enough for one's skill level, and no doubt it's a skill worth working on, but it doesn't characterize most game positions which are more open and evaluating common lines of play starts to be become useful. I'd be interested in learning more about how reading relates to risk management, given the reality that our reading skills and available time in a game are both limited. For example, I have seen commentaries to the effect of "black might consider continuing here, but the position is complex and there is no way to know whether black can get out in sente, so black played over here instead." Such a comment is really just a frank admission that the author's (and maybe also the players') reading is limited, but there is still a need to manage the position somehow. Another example: when reading out a sequence in the mind's eye, there could be a path where at some point the opponent can cut---the shape makes it looks a bit unreasonable to do that, but due to limited skill and/or time it is hard to see what happens after that cut. Many players would just play it out and hope for the best. ![]() In my experience, it's impossible to read any position to much depth if you don't engage in aggressive pruning of variations. The only way to prune effectively, however, seems to be to train your subconscious to make particular moves stand out to you for consideration. When you look at the board in some position, say an early one so that there are less stones to take in, with experience your eye tends to be drawn to certain areas or points on the board. I've heard people describe them as shining, but to me they just stand out more than the others. Often, and more often as I get better, they are good candidate moves for consideration, but I didn't perform any mental calculation to make them appear. Once they're there, I can read through what I might expect my opponent to do, but again, their options get limited by what stands out in my mind as reasonable. It's also frequent that common situations get broken into chunks rather than individual moves, which has benefits and drawbacks. It helps me read farther, but I need to be careful to consider other alternatives in the process as well. I suppose what I'm saying is that the bulk of reading is done by my subconscious, followed up with conscious verification of limited sets of moves. I don't have the time to read large open-ended areas out exhaustively, and I doubt too many other people do either. There are documented examples of professional games where both players played out a certain area, where there was a variation that completely destroys one side or the other. Both players missed the variation, because it involves a bad-shape move that happens to work in that particular situation, and generally the stronger the player, the harder it is for them to consider automatically. The questions you posed, and particularly the last one, are all good questions to be considering as you play as well. In Zone Press Park, one of the things that O Meien speaks of are finite moves and infinite moves. Finite ones he defines as moves where the variations can be calculated by the players to a certain conclusion. Infinite ones are those with too many variations or otherwise too much complexity for either player to be able to discern what will happen. He stresses that (my interpretation) it's important to consider the surrounding positions to get an idea of whether the result of an infinite move will lead to an overall favourable result for one side or the other, or if the position should favour a balanced result. As for your last question, this is a good thing to consider about any position, as it helps you generate a plan for the rest of the game that might get you stones in the right places for these sequences to start working. You can't have a plan that doesn't involve aims, after all. |
Author: | John Fairbairn [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
Quote: Currently, in the English literature, there are only the short Reading chapters in First Fundamentals (ch. 10) and Tesuji (Davies, ch. 1). Not exactly, because there are very many chess books that discuss the topic, and also quite a few devoted entirely to it. One that is sitting on a shelf in front of me is "How to calculate chess tactics" by Valeri Beim which devotes over 170 large pages to it. I haven't read it and am not likely to, but the blurb claims that Beim "strikes a balance by explaining how to use intuition and logic together to solve tactical problems in a methodical way. He also offers advice on when it is best to calculate 'like a machine', and when it is better to rely on intuitive assessment." A very large part of the book is dedicated to "The technique of calculating variations", and seems to be partly about how to scan trees in your head, and partly about selecting candidate moves, but there is also a section on what to do if the situations read out are unclear or complex. The focus appears to be the body of the game (opening and middle game) rather than checkmate combinations, meaning you have to learn to evaluate as well as read. Although the details of the evaluation must differ, this seems to cover everything a go player needs. While there is not a huge amount of Japanese material on this subject, what I have seen is a very close fit with the chess material. The only significant difference at the tactical level is that go allows for longer forced sequences than chess, which means reading depth can go further, at least nominally, and for this reason also there is greater reliance on suji (or haengma). You could argue that go is different in having more scope for tenuki and in that mistakes are not often as fatal as in chess, but the very criticality of correct reading in chess surely implies that the chess writers have had a more urgent need to come up with good techniques. One way or another it would seem foolish to ignore them. For those that have the Kitani volumes of the Gendai no Meikyoku series, there is an excellent appendix there illustrating how Kitani thinks reading should be done, and he was one of the deepest and best calculators ever. |
Author: | Vesa [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
tl;dr Cheers, Vesa |
Author: | RobertJasiek [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
There are - strategic reading with incomplete tactics and possible subconscious thinking by those liking it and - detailed tactical reading, which should be explicit to reveal definite answers. The core of tactical reading is the same for every two-player, complete-information, zero-sum game. In particular, it is the same for Chess and Go. However, techniques (e.g. for simplifications / pruning) accompanying the core can differ. They are rich and important in Go; I do not know about Chess, but I would guess that the more dynamic nature of pieces' placements spoils some simplifications applicable in Go. What are Kitani's key ideas for reading? |
Author: | oren [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems. http://www.yunguseng.com/ Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos. |
Author: | paK0 [ Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
oren wrote: One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems. http://www.yunguseng.com/ Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos. I haven't seen the video(not a member), but from a free lecture that I found somewhere it seemed like the 1-2-3 method is more on what to read than how to read. (Though i agree, it was super helpful) |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
oren wrote: One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems. http://www.yunguseng.com/ Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos. What's the basic idea? |
Author: | Cassandra [ Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
Bill Spight wrote: What's the basic idea? Don't know about InSeongs' method. The basic idea behind a probably similar method (mentioned by another semi-professinal) was to think about playing "3" first. |
Author: | Ortho [ Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
Bill Spight wrote: oren wrote: One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems. http://www.yunguseng.com/ Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos. What's the basic idea? If your obvious move gives your opponent a good move in response, you will often find a good move by playing the move that your opponent would play. |
Author: | Cassandra [ Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
Ortho wrote: If your obvious move gives your opponent a good move in response, you will often find a good move by playing the move that your opponent would play. If so, what is the "3" good for ? |
Author: | Ortho [ Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
Cassandra wrote: Ortho wrote: If your obvious move gives your opponent a good move in response, you will often find a good move by playing the move that your opponent would play. If so, what is the "3" good for ? It's free here: http://www.advancedstudyroom.com/3rd-in ... go-easier/ |
Author: | Bantari [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
RobertJasiek wrote: Quotation reference: viewtopic.php?p=172152#p172152 Krama wrote: Nobody every told me how to read, as it is something you must figure out yourself. But it is damn hard to read moves ahead if they don't seem natural or simple. [...] It seems that you can give a good guideline for anything related to go study, but when asked on how to practice reading the answer is always, to read. Exactly. There are countless of problem books but they hardly teach how to read, and their readers are supposed to already know it. Currently, in the English literature, there are only the short Reading chapters in First Fundamentals (ch. 10) and Tesuji (Davies, ch. 1). However, I have good news for you: I am writing a book that is solely devoted to learning how to read! Hmm... isn't it like painting a picture to teach a blind person about colors? ![]() |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
Another attempt: http://senseis.xmp.net/?HowToRead |
Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
This webpage teaches too little about how to read, contains bad or wrong advice and confuses specialised L+D reading techniques with general reading techniques. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
It's a wiki |
Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
Yes, and since the same few people cannot spend 10 hours per wiki page to correct it, the editing work should be done by dozens of different people. |
Author: | MMaestro [ Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
RobertJasiek wrote: What are Kitani's key ideas for reading? I'm also quite curious about this. |
Author: | skydyr [ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Rumour on Reading |
MMaestro wrote: RobertJasiek wrote: What are Kitani's key ideas for reading? I'm also quite curious about this. I seem to recall someone writing that he would start reading with the move he thought least likely to work, and then work his way up through more likely candidates, rather than the other way around. I couldn't say any more than that, though. |
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