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| Book for advice on running fight moves? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11383 |
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| Author: | lebigot [ Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Book for advice on running fight moves? |
While reading go books (like In the Beginning, or Fundamental Principles of Go), I notice that during a running fight, books often show solid, connected moves where I would do a 1-space jump so as to get ahead (at the price of having a few weaker connections). I did read The Stones Go Walking, in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go, but it was not enough for me to understand why so much precaution is so often taken. What book chapter could I read so as to learn what the current wisdom is on this subject? I feel like I am missing some important concept/advice. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Book for advice on running fight moves? |
Running fights and choosing its moves are developed in a broader context of go knowledge referred to by the topics below. Although the basics are the balance between safety and stability of connection versus speed and efficiency of movement, all the other topics mentioned below also play important roles when choosing good running moves. In the broadest sense, also sente, gote, sacrifice and exchange must be considered, but before these topics there is already enough more direct knowledge to be learnt. Besides reading books on the topics of haengma, direction, aji and other concepts mentioned below (if you can find such books), you need to understand well the concepts of connection and efficiency. You can read: - Joseki 1 Fundamentals: ch. 9.2 Connection, ch. 9.6 Extension, ch. 9.10 Thick Extension, ch. 9.12.3 Thick Jump, ch. 9.16 Light and Thin Shapes, ch. 9.18 Creating Possibilities, ch. 10.2 Construction, ch. 10.3.3 Weakening, ch. 10.5 Creating Possibilities, ch. 11 Development Directions, ch. 12.2 Local Move Selection, ch. 12.3 Aspects of Extensions and Checking Extensions. - Joseki 2 Strategy: ch. 3.1 Connection, ch. 3.4 Aji, ch. 3.5 Efficiency, ch. 3.8 Stability, ch. 3.10 Investment, ch. 3.11 Playing Elsewhere, ch. 3.13 Flexibility, ch. 3.14 Mobility, ch. 3.16 Haengma, ch. 3.17 Timing, ch. 4.6 Tewari, ch. 6 Strategic Choices, ch. 7.1.3 Threatening Further Development. - Fighting Fundamentals: ch. 3.2 Mutual Settling Fight, ch. 3.6 Attack on One Group, ch. 3.9 Mutual Running Fight, ch. 4.6 Threatened versus Defended Stability, ch. 5.3 Aji, ch. 5.4 Playing Elsewhere, ch. 6.2 Reading, ch. 6.3 Interruption, ch. 6.4.3 Blocking Directions, ch. 6.4.5 Maintaining Connection and Life, ch. 6.4.6 Flexibility, ch. 6.4.7 Severity, ch. 6.5 Defending Life, ch. 6.6 Forcing, ch. 6.7 Timing, ch. 7.3 General Fighting Strategy. - The Vital Points of Go: ch. about Tewari. [Non-essential reading if you read Joseki 2 Strategy.] Since I am not aware of a book discussing only the moves of running fights and all the topics above applied to it, I think the best you can do is read the mentioned books and apply the concepts also to your running fighs. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Book for advice on running fight moves? |
Quote: While reading go books (like In the Beginning, or Fundamental Principles of Go), I notice that during a running fight, books often show solid, connected moves where I would do a 1-space jump so as to get ahead (at the price of having a few weaker connections). I did read The Stones Go Walking, in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go, but it was not enough for me to understand why so much precaution is so often taken. What book chapter could I read so as to learn what the current wisdom is on this subject? I feel like I am missing some important concept/advice. It's a very rare item but ex-European Champion Matthew Macfadyen once wrote a useful pamphlet called something like Jungle Warfare on this topic. There is considerable Japanese material on the topic, which even has its own area of specialised nomenclature and proverbs. For example, such go is called nige-go (running battles), the style of play is nige-nige, and the concept you were striving for, getting ahead, is nige-kosu (which you do mainly to avoid severe attack rather than to launch an attack yourself - a common amateur mistake is to think you can attack, but the point is you are in a jungle and the first priority is survival). Other terms include seriau and aoru. One of the basic bits of advice is to alternate solid and empty, i.e. to play a nobi or kosumi then a jump, and another is to put kinks in the wall. This achieves a compromise between speed and safety. The kinks do that, to, but also help steer the fight in whatever direction you think may be useful later. One of the more useful proverbs is "Don't run away with useless stones" (i.e. don't save stones just for the sake of saving them - to be worth saving they have to be doing useful work). In the absence of anything specific in English, reading about haengma (or suji) can be useful. Another approach is to look at games that involve the long variations of the Avalanche. If you do study pro games, one thing to look for is when they start and when they stop running - amateurs tend to be too early and too late respectively. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Book for advice on running fight moves? |
Something I noticed when low dan was stronger players sometimes made kosumis to run but I rarely did (Matthew Macfadyen being one example). Probably I held back from doing so having learnt that it was a slow shape, and can be a bad shape. I do it more now, but still maybe not enough. I find they are often a good move when they clearly create miai of two good moves next, and compared to the one-space jump you don't have to worry about peeps or wedges. Sometimes they are richer in eyeshape too. Often it's coming out from this black shape (like 5-5 from double approached 4-4, but in centre of board). It's one of the many things you can pick up from studying pro games. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Book for advice on running fight moves? |
http://senseis.xmp.net/?ThisIsHaengma |
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| Author: | lebigot [ Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Book for advice on running fight moves? |
Thank you for the help! For reference, I also just noticed: - Shape Up! (Charles Matthews), Chap. 14 (Haengma) - Baduk Made Fun and Easy, Lessons 52–56. I haven't read them, so I don't know how much they address my initial question of knowing when to do a slow stretch and a larger one-point jump. |
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| Author: | joellercoaster [ Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Book for advice on running fight moves? |
Actually, Shape Up! already has some discussion of exactly that (jumps vs press vs nobi etc and the ways those can play out) in its first chapter. It's not a whole book dedicated to running fights but it's definitely relevant  (Disclaimer: I have only read parts of Shape Up! so I can't claim definitive knowledge of the answer. But it's good so far.) |
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| Author: | jeromie [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Book for advice on running fight moves? |
I ran across this link today and thought it might be helpful to some people. I haven't watched the video and the lecturer doesn't have a particularly high rank, but I'm guessing this would be helpful to other beginners who have similar questions. Dsaun lecture on shape in running fights |
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