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Offline johnsmith
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #21 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:37 am 
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macelee wrote:
It turns out that Golaxy has another aspect that is more similar to human than to other bots. Instead of giving a winning percentage, Golaxy gives its positional judgement in points (e.g. black leads by 6.2 points) as if it can count.
So it turns out that if you like territory and points you should play 3-3 in all the corners you can. Which makes sense :)

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #22 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:34 am 
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Golaxy is playing a series of 30 no-komi games against pros (I guess on yikeweiqi server), macelee has put them in go4go. Humans won 2 of the 27 he has (well done Kang Dongyun and Yun Chanhee!). It beat Park Junghwan, I think the final game will be against Ke Jie?
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/byplayer/1992

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Offline Hane
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #23 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:58 am 
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Golaxy， while adopting AlphaGo‘s basic architecture， has brought innovations into feature combination， model structure， and MCTS calculation methods。 It manages to complete model training with less computing resources or training samples， yet with the potential to achieve the highest possible Go level by AI。

Golaxy tries to play Go in a style that is easier for human players to understand and to learn。 It can play Go on boards of all sizes and all komi settings。 Golaxy will not concede even when leading。

This post by Hane was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, thirdfogie
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #24 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:03 am 
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Quote:
Golaxy will not concede even when leading。
Seems typo: when losing.
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Offline sorin
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #25 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:07 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Golaxy is playing a series of 30 no-komi games against pros (I guess on yikeweiqi server), macelee has put them in go4go. Humans won 2 of the 27 he has (well done Kang Dongyun and Yun Chanhee!). It beat Park Junghwan, I think the final game will be against Ke Jie?
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/byplayer/1992


I noticed in the Yun Chanhee that Golaxy's opening was very unusual- two moves in 5x7, and two moves in 6x6, while black's moves were all orthodox - I wonder if it was the human operator choosing the first 4 bot moves manually just to make the game more interesting?

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Offline sorin
 Post subject: Re:
Post #26 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:09 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
Golaxy will not concede even when leading。
Seems typo: when losing.


I think it is meant to be: "will not play slack/stupid-looking moves when ahead".

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Offline Hane
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #27 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:16 am 
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source : http://sports.sina.com.cn/go/2018-04-23/doc-ifzqvvrz7515857.shtml
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Offline EdLee
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Post #28 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:43 am 
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Thanks, Sorin; makes more sense that way.
Quote:
Golaxy will not concede even when leading。
An issue here is the definition of concede:
- in terms of the final points difference; or
- in terms of the winrate.

They're implicitly (and selectively) using the former meaning, which is quite human-centric, and a pre-AlphaGo idea.
Whereas AFAIK AlphaGo/AlphaZero-class bots also don't concede in the latter meaning, when ahead. ( AG's winrate monotonically non-decreasing, when AG is ahead. )
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Offline macelee
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #29 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:51 am 
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sorin wrote:
I noticed in the Yun Chanhee that Golaxy's opening was very unusual- two moves in 5x7, and two moves in 6x6, while black's moves were all orthodox - I wonder if it was the human operator choosing the first 4 bot moves manually just to make the game more interesting?


I heard that there was some software configuration issues that resulted the rather unusual opening. Also note that there was a very large-scale seki - not sure if that caused difficulties to the AI.
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Offline macelee
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #30 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:21 am 
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macelee wrote:
sorin wrote:
Also note that there was a very large-scale seki - not sure if that caused difficulties to the AI.


Golaxy has completed the 30-game series. The total score is 28-2.

Apparently Golaxy has no problem with seki! In fact in game 30 against Zhou Ruiyang, they managed to create a 4-group seki situation. This remind me a recent LG cup game viewtopic.php?p=229331#p229331

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . O O O X . X O . |
$$ | . . X X O . . X . O . X O X X X O . . |
$$ | X . O O X X X X O , X . X . X X O . . |
$$ | X X . X O O O X O . . X X X O X O . . |
$$ | X O X X X . . O O . X . . . O O X O . |
$$ | X O O O X O . . . . X O . O . . X O . |
$$ | O O O X O . . . . . X O . O X O X . . |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . O O X . X O . X . . |
$$ | O O . X O . . . . , . . X . O , . . . |
$$ | O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O O . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | X X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X O X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O O X X O . . , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | X O . O X O O . . X . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | O O X O X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This post by macelee was liked by: thirdfogie
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Offline abcd_z
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #31 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:35 am 
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Hane wrote:
Golaxy， while adopting AlphaGo‘s basic architecture， [...] manages to complete model training with less computing resources or training samples


You know what that says to me? He used transfer learning from Leela Zero's weights.
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: LZ v Golaxy
Post #32 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:36 pm 
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abcd_z wrote:
You know what that says to me? He used transfer learning from Leela Zero's weights.

I don't know about the weights, but I think at the very least it would be silly not to use Leela Zero's millions of quality self-play games when training any network.
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