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Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17004		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary,
How does your go game grow?
With shoulder hits and 3-3 points
And line-2 crawls in a row.

We have become so used to spectacular shoulder hits by AI bots that they are now common among modern pros, but I like to spot earlier examples by humans. I was therefore chuffed to see this example by Honinbo Shuho in 1885.



What was especially interesting was that Shuho specifically said he played it out of curiosity.

I decided to double-check and see what Lizzie thought. It turned out she could be just as contrary as Mary!

The game went Black A, White B, as Shuho expected.

But Lizzie (via LZ) did not even have the shoulder hit on her radar, and also showed a two-percentage-points loss for White after it was played. She preferred presses at C or D.

I have noticed some liking for strong presses by the bots, but I don't recall seeing much, if any, comment about them here. Either way, it looks as if we need to pay more attention to them, and it may also be a useful reminder not to think in terms simply of shape moves like shoulder hits. Maybe sheer severity more heavily trumps shape in bot play than in human play.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
Regarding presses, shoulder hits and the like, I am a fan of the gospel according to LZ, as interpreted by Uberdude:
Quote:
Here is the opening gospel according to LZ, play the following moves if possible in order from top to bottom (he negative ones are for urgent local situations):
-3) if your 3-4 is being pressed, answer
-2) if your 4-4 is 3-3 invaded, answer it
-1) if your 4-4 is double approached, attach out
1) play in empty corner
2) approach (low) or enclose (big high) a 3-4
3) press if they ignored your approach to 3-4
4) approach or 3-3 invade a 4-4
5) double approach a 4-4
6) enclose from 4-4


I haven’t tried to practically apply this theory into my own games, but it’s fascinating to me.

If you followed this in the game here, I suppose the idea is to play ‘D’...
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
Attachment:
3eboap.jpg
3eboap.jpg [ 95.48 KiB | Viewed 5682 times ]
Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
Hayashi Kozo :bow: taught me the value of the press in the pre AI era.
Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
I am a follower of the gospel as you may have guessed already :-)
Author:  John Tilley [ Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
I think it was Paul Prescott back in the mid 1970s who pointed out that Moses took two stones from God - as can now be seen in Uberdude's picture. Moses was believed to be a 5p - based on the spiritual "Go Down Moses". However the professional ranks aren't of course a full handicap stone apart - so God is of course stronger than 7p - please make of that what you will.

John Tilley
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lizzie, Lizzie, quite contrary
The high value of the press means I never play against the Kobayashi or mini-Chinese openings anymore as when they approach for move 5 I counter approach their 3-4, and if they double approach my 4-4 I tenuki and press, confident in the knowledge that the trade is good for me if they resist: immediate fence in my 4-4 at 5-5 and I follow up press by munching their 3-4 is good for me, likewise if they crawl twice in effort to not die in corner in sente and then 5-5 it's still good for me to turn.
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