...means what?

http://bit.ly/w1QOHA

I guess I take issue with this whole attitude of "what do we get" Yes, the AGA should of course do whatever it can to give members benefits and to promote go, but joining an organization should be more than "what do we get"

I mean, seriously, its $30 a year. That is less than a week's worth of coffee for most of us. Now, I ask you a question, which do you identify as - a go player or a coffee drinker?

Because it seems to me if you are a go player, you belong to your national association.

Again, I am for improvement, but evaluating this decision based on "Well the ejournal is interesting but I can get most of it for free" is truly missing the point. The only reason the ejournal is interesting is because other people support the AGA and make the things happen that you find interesting.

The reality is the ejournal is not interesting for free, it is interesting because others pay and work to support it - whether it be 5 cups of coffee a year or my $1000 for life or articles written and quizzes guessed.

And the bottom line is the more you put into it, the more you get for your money - the more tournaments you attend, the more tournaments you run, the more people you meet the more interesting the ejournal becomes and the more good you do for go, and even KGS and Life in 19 gets more interesting because you actually, as opposed to virtually, know the people you play and interact with.

Life can be more than getting something for as little money and effort as possible, life can be about investing (barely) and actively belonging.

_________________
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

I'm concerned. It sounds a bit like you're drinking the overpriced milkshakes places try to disguise as coffee. Drip coffee is less than $2 a cup. I used to frequent a few places that had really nice coffees at $3, and two of those a day would add up to $30 over a week.

Oh right! The AGA...

I can't endorse this wholeheartedly enough. Unless you think the AGA is a complete disgrace, you should be a member.

I don't mean that judgmentally. I let my membership lapse through part of 2010-2011 as I moved across several states, changed fields and found myself rather unprepared to raise a child. Stuff happens. But I would say your membership shouldn't be a purely instrumental thing.

We have to offer things that are interesting because not everyone will see it that way. And an AGA that looks like it's efficiency, active, and concerned about members does a lot to make people feel like they're part of something good.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Well this is exactly the question. How do you view the AGA.

Is it sufficient that it is the "only game in town" for Go in the USA, and therefore it's "my country right or wrong"?

There are those whose opinions of the AGA past - we can hold the present in reserve to see what really happens - are far far less complimentary than mine.

I think if you run an organization or a business it is probably a good idea to do the best job possible and to use whatever means you have available to do that job. When that organization's mission is to represent members AND all Go players in the USA, and foster the game then the standard of measure is higher than if it is an organization with only a mission that represents a parochial point of view or a narrow focus in a local area.

It is instructive to recall that 75-90% of all members do not renew for one reason or another. No for profit business would not maximize their "customer" base for "repeat sales" at the very minimum. But this is just a symptom that points to a broader issue.

That issue is what I've tried to bring across - fixing this or that, even if done well simply isn't a solution. Sure the one thing gets fixed, or two things. But do they stay fixed, or fixed in time? Rather, I'd suggest that we discuss how to set up a system & structure that is adaptive, self "curing" and able to address problems as they arise, and find solutions to both old and new operational and tactical deficts in the AGA.

If the AGA structure andsystem is able to support being adaptive and flexible to meet these demands, then it will find the proper solutions to these various problems.

It's a slightly different discussion...

_-_-bear

Indeed. You have been helpful, informative, and professional even when you had plenty of excuses not to be. Ironically, this thread has improved my perception of the AGA (though I've never had a particularly strong view one way or the other). I don't think you should feel obligated to continue spending time on this thread. While it is up to you, I imagine there are more productive ways to spend your time: playing go....improving the AGA.

Just for safety sake, here is the membership generated graph on memberships the last oh, 20 years. LINK
*The BB wouldnt let me embed the image

_________________
Decisions are made by those who show up.
and possibly those willing to attend secret meetings in ancient basements

but, itn't this data also skewed by memberships that have temporarily expired?
is it possible to see only expires that never renewed?

because I suspect the expire data is artificially high just from many people accidentally letting their memberships lapse until the next tourney (something the continuous membership rule attempted, but failed to correct)

I dont like the phrase "temporarily expired" since the AGA treats it as an expired membership. If you take off the 2012 data, last column to the left it will show the data points on memberships each year. If needed I can prod for more details on what membership types are included or excluded from each plot.

_________________
Decisions are made by those who show up.
and possibly those willing to attend secret meetings in ancient basements

This claim has been made several times, and I want to see the proof.

The AGA has approximate 2000 members, so the drop-out rate implies 1500-1800 per year. The membership has been approximately flat over the past 12 years, so the number of new people joining has to equal the drop off. So we have approximately 1500-1800 people joinng per year. 1500-1800 people per year for 12 years means that the AGA would have issued 18000 to 21600 new membership numbers since the year 2000.

Funny enough, member number 19702 has only just been issued, and that's over the entire life of the AGA.

Bearzbear, you're trying to bolster your arguments by pulling numbers out of your ass. Stop it.

That's a very good criticism, but didn't numbers restart around 1990? Another factor may be that members may join, let their membership lapse, and rejoin under the same number. That's not perfect, but it's not quite the damning indictment that he's making it out to be.

Also, there's a good concrete test: troll the database for people who joined around 2000, and see what their numbers are. I don't have time to do that right now, but I am 13891 and I joined in 2005. Being generous to bearzbear's case, we could suppose that member 7800 might have joined in 2000.

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Occupy Babel!

The 75-90% number was from me, and it's a guesstimate based on our current number of members (~2200) and what the latest member # is (~19000). Sorry, bad me, I should be more careful; it's probably way off. I was just trying to emphasize that I'm aware (actually, I'd say all AGA officials are aware) that we have retention problems.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Suggest you read this: viewtopic.php?p=90147#p90147

Then apologize.

Talk about who is being rude!

_-_-bearzbear

Time out guys, Real Numbers (I have access to the membership database):



So, 88% of members are lapsed. My estimate was quite close.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

The over arching concept seems lost.

Go analogy: people keep talking about which move in a particular variation of a joseki is good or not. What I'm trying to look at is whole board strategy and direction of play!

_-_-bear

I'd imagine, there is some percentage who have deceased (not sure how significant the precentage)
Also, I image there is a quite significant number who signed up for a one-time tournament (and perhaps a good number of those have been re-issued new numbers for more than one event)
And many foreign players who have come over for one or a few congresses.

I don't think the problem is still quite that high.

All time figures are meaningless. In the end, death gets us all

I'm sorry, must have missed this part, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

_-_-bear

Those both sound important.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

TYPES
Full (12,358)
Chapter (494)
Complimentary (14)
E-Journal (195)
Institution (0)
Library (9)
Lifetime (93)
Rating-only (2,413)
Sponsor (85)
Sustainer (166)
Youth (2,413)
Total: 18240

STATUSES
Accepted (17,911)
Current (2,206)
Lapsed (15,683)
Pending (50)
Archived (279)
All (18,240)

While the membership numbers have surpassed 19000, there are a number of lower numbers that have no members attached to them and are available to be chosen by lifetime members if they are available.

_________________
Decisions are made by those who show up.
and possibly those willing to attend secret meetings in ancient basements