That's a great contribution to the discussion.
Thank you for your insight.

_-_-

Ok, I'll be more straightforward: it matters both whether your big picture (which I think is non-existant) is correct, and whether the particular facts you mention are true. Ignoring either gets you nowhere. So I think Phil was entirely right to question your facts.

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Occupy Babel!

I guess we do disagree on some things. Why do you take an issue if I have a "what do we get" attitude? I'll agree that 30 bucks is not a lot - and I've paid it before.

But if I get no benefit from the organization, why should I be taxed every year because I am a go player?

If there is no benefit to me for the AGA, I am just as happy if it doesn't exist. I can still play go online or with friends. I can still study the game.

If the AGA "becomes interesting", then sure, I will pay money for it. But what evidence do I have that it will go in that direction?

The e-journal, in its free form, is interesting for sure. But I can look up go information online for free, too. I know some foreign languages, so I can find go news pretty easily every day if I want.

So I guess I would sum up to say that, if the AGA amounted to something that I really cared about its existance, then I'd pay for it.

I know such a stance likely irritates you and others here, but I'm just giving an honest opinion of what I see. You can argue that it will take investment for the AGA to actually become something I find worth paying for. But how many years is that going to take?

It's like a software company charging thousands of dollars for software that doesn't give benefit to people they don't already have. The company can complain that nobody buys their software, but what sense does that make?

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be immersed

I think this position is both reasonable and probably wide-spread. (EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't agree with it, but I do think it is reasonable.)

It is our task to make the AGA an organization worth joining.

So, Kirby: Can you name one or two things the AGA could do that would significantly raise the chance of you re-joining?

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

You only need to do one thing: do another go world promotion. To be clear, once I again live in a city where tournaments are happening more often, I will be a member for the tournaments, even if you don't do the go world promotion.

And if I were single, I may even join just to go to congress. But in my current situation, the go world promotion would make me join (or something similar).

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be immersed

Please see this article.

If you ever play someone from central Mississippi online or otherwise, it's possible that the AGA had something to do with it. People that volunteer for the AGA, willingly and freely gave their time, expertise, and energy helping me to help others learn and play go in central Mississippi.

In part, that's what the AGA does for you.

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Founder, Central Mississippi Go Club
Free tips and resources for clubs and teaching
Go Kit Club Pack - pack of 13x13 go sets for clubs
Go Tin - very portable go

Sure, some people may have learned go due to the aga's existence. But a great deal of people learn go online for free, too. People learn go all the time at student initiated university go clubs for free, too. We don't need a monetary organization to get people to learn go. If I want people in my city to learn go, I can put up fliers.

I mostly play go online, anyway, and my paying 30 dollars a year has no affect on the fact that I can play a game of go 24/7, whenever it's convenient for me. If the AGA didn't exist after today, this would not change at all.

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be immersed

To be clear, many things that the aga does are positive. My view is simply that the aga's existence does not affect me much in my current situation, so I do not feel morally or otherwise obligated to pay money every year to something that has little effect on me.

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be immersed

Except that the facts were NOT mine at all!
They were Daniels, correct?
The other facts were from the AGA minutes, yes?
What am i missing here?

If you see a different "big picture" as you call it, then tell me please what your relationship is to the AGA? Perhaps that has something to do with what you are saying?

Tell us about how well the AGA has been doing over the last few years, the last decade and the 4 decades before? Correct me and give me the proper picture. I do not mind being wrong at all.

Explain what I am ignoring? Yeah I am ignoring an argument on individual and specific ideas to fix one area that may need correction.

_-_-bearzbear



I am also ignoring the several times I have been called names, apparently because people did not like hearing things straight and directly... while the same people called me rude. Hmmmm...

I think what HKA and others are saying is something like JFK tried to say so many years ago...

ask not "what can the AGA do for me?", but ask "what can I do for the AGA?"

so when the AGA helps a new go club get started and expanded, its not the AGA that helped them, its you and I (well, apparently not you).

I like helping other people learn to play, whether I do it myself in person, or vicariously through an organization. "I" helped Mississippi get equipment, and I helped teach new players there -- and I never even met them.

My $30 was well spent.

Who else can I help?

Disclaimer: not a member of the AGA (or even in the States).

This is purely for that "Ask not what ___ can do for you, but what you can do for ___". I may be overly cynical in thinking that it's pure rhetorics, but if the AGA cannot operate and use its resources efficiently to provide value for paying members, what chances does it have in effectively spreading the game (you have to take care of yourself to take care of others)?

I have no clue if the AGA is doing well (that Prime Minister's Cup thing was pretty terrible, but I was very impressed by the response by the board members and other volunteers in this thread), but couldn't resist as I always hated that sentence (maybe it's too "bright" and optimistic for someone like me) :p

Let's make an analogy. Suppose I make an iPhone app about go. Now suppose that you have a device that runs android. You don't have an iPhone.

Now, it's very cool that I have helped the go community by making an iPhone app. And I want you to buy my app.

The thing is, while you like go, you don't have an iphone, so the app is useless to you.

I can make outlandish claims about your duty as a go player to support the community by buying my app, but that would be stupid.

When the aga does nothing for me at this time in my life, why am I expected to give money to the aga?

I won't think you're selfish for not buying my iphone app. I hope the same can be said to me for not buying a mmbership hat does nothing for me.

---

You say my perspective is "all about me". I think this is bogus, because the 30 dollars I would spend for membership could be used - altruistically - to buy go books for my neighbor down the street.

That kind of gesture - with a real person that knows me - means more to the go community than my membership fee will.

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be immersed

I found it kind of ironic that after talking about cutting expenses, corporate turnaround and all that one of the proposals of bearzbearz was to create full time staff positions. Another point I found odd was quoting what Mr. Smith said at AGA meetings as evidence how bad things are. For DTS being at those meetings and saying those things is already part of the change.

And finally a question from an European perspective:

Did you ever consider to change the collection membership fees from individual payment to payment by / through the chapters? Or are most members outside of chapters anyway?

I'm a member of the AGA, and I wouldn't let it lapse. I like playing in tournaments whenever I can.

But I don't understand why folks would take issue with Kirby's position. It's not selfishness to decide not to join an organization because you get very little from the services. A membership is not a charitable donation.

Now, I will concede, some of those services are hidden. Go players in this country get benefits from the AGA without realizing it. But why hold those over anyone's head?

We shouldn't need to guilt people into joining the AGA, it has enough going for it otherwise.

And about the worst way you can convince a person to join your organization is by berating them for not joining... Well, short of accepting memberships at gunpoint.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Thats exactly how I see it. I became a member of my national go organisation without knowing and regardless of all the benefits. And the annual fee is 78€ which is ~100$. I wanted to contribute to go. Later I got to know how hard it is as a go organisation, to be effective and to raise money and recruit volounteers. I have done volounteer work since then on multiple occasions (helping run tournaments, broadcasting important matches online for EuroGoTV, ...).

How many of your neighbors have you given go books?

Actually, Kirby, I was mostly agreeing with you (for this part of the discussion) until you said this. Both the iphone app maker and the fictitious neighbor are weak analogies. We don't view an app maker as someone primarily interested in doing something for the go community, but rather this is a possible side benefit of his striving to make a buck. Purchasing his app does not support go, it just supports the I-guy. As for your neighbor, in contrast with the AGA, he is fictitious - not the neighbor himself, but rather the neighbor as happy recipient of your generosity and future go buddy. This is not to say that you wouldn't do it or that you're not generous enough, but rather that he seems more of a maybe than the AGA, an organization with a proven (even if meager) track record, so the comparison seems dubious.


Just going back a moment, HKA said "...Because it seems to me if you are a go player, you belong to your national association." and xed'over upped the ante with: "ask not 'what can the AGA do for me?', but ask 'what can I do for the AGA?'" Their arguments are based on the idea that if you belong to a community, and there is an organization that does something for that community, that you should support it. Now comparing the AGA to the USA (which has built roads, provided national security etc., ) seems a bit far fetched. On the other hand, comparing the AGA to a fellow making an iphone app is setting the bar too low.

The AGA as a volunteer organization is indeed a product of the go-playing community in the US, and so what comes out is what comes in. While many seem to have issues about what is coming out, it seems reasonable to assume that what is coming out is the result of the interests, expectations and abilities of the community as a whole and of those who contribute in particular. It is also reasonable to assume that while organizations can be wasteful and misguided, they nonetheless can get things done that individuals can't. While these things may not be as significant as roads or national security, it seems worth asking whether or not the activities of such an organization in fact "does nothing" for you. I'd be willing to bet for example, that were there no national go organizations such as the AGA or the British Go Association, that there would be no KGS - or at least not in such an active form as we know it.

Nonetheless, I am sympathetic. Just as the NCAA does not necessarily have the best interests of the collegiate athletes at heart (see here), who knows whether the AGA is the best way to bring go players together and to promote go. For me personally, the services L19 provides are far more valuable. L19 promotes go, helps people with similar interests get in contact with each other across the globe, and invites my participation. And doesn't cost a dime. Then again, there are things - mostly in the real world - that L19 can't get done such as run events, because it has neither the structure nor the organization nor the funds to do so.

But I don't go to events. I don't like tournaments. I don't even enjoy playing irl. These are the reasons that I am not a member of a national organization. And yet, three years ago when I moved from the sticks to a city, I was thrilled to discover that there was a go club here. I went a few times, the thrill wore off, but for some reason, I'm still glad that it's there. It's a sign that there is a community here where I live...

But hey, who am I kidding? I'm not a member. But I'm thinking about it.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Dear Tapir,

You missed the full scope of what I suggested?

The idea is to cut expenses and get the basic organization into a fully functional state.

Two of the main functions, most basic functions are 1)collecting dues and soliciting membership, and 2)interfacing with members. What I suggested is to maybe fund full-time or part-timepersons to do these functions. Without the overheads of a physical office.

This is merely one suggestion that to be implemented requires in a neutral income situation for something else to give way. A possible benefit to having persons, maybe only one or two being paid not all that much is continuity over time, as compared to a volunteer who may or may not have kept proper records, etc...

(I gave suggestions because people were screaming about being more specific - but I first tried to explain the general concept(s), how the target is met can be debated and adjusted once the nature of what needs to be done can be agreed upon in the first place) (many people have said that there is nothing wrong, so not much to do...)

My point was that in my view the AGA would do well to move to a more professional organizational model at least in some ways.

The reason that dues can not be collected through chapters is that the AGA does not really control or know the state of many chapters, most have few memebers, and they are very weak to non-existent. National dues is a good model.

_-_-bearzbear

Which is an interesting observation.

Two thoughts come to mind immediately.

First, why did the AGA not start a forum early on (or now), and before the age of internet forums a listserve? Why was the only place to discuss Go at one time Rec.games.go?? It seems to me a logical thing for the national Go organization to have done.

It's emblematic, sitting out here, of the attitude and focus of the AGA historically.

Secondly, "It doesn't cost a dime" right! The $$ cost of maintaining a forum is pretty darn small in the scope of things. It's just a smart, effective way of getting people together and talking. Pretty easy and simple to implement. So many other things are also smart, effective and pretty easy to implement. A good idea is make a list of those things and implement.

Part of that: the website. Websites have been BIG for more than a decade (more than that, but...) so why has the AGA's website been so weak for this long? What does that say? What does it say about the organization and the organization's image? What does it say about the leadership, their perceptions and priorities?

It's nice that Daniel has personally chosen to speak for himself here, and Andy O came in once I think, but this points to the underlying issue - why have the leadership of the AGA never(historically) made themselves particularly approachable or available in to the memebers, or in public forums (reachable by the members) and more to the point willing or able to listen to critical reports and factor them back into bonafide action and response?

_-_-bearzbear

For the record (unless I missed one) the quotes from the minutes that have shown up in this thread have not been of me, and while they are based on truths, I would not say they are 100% accurate. But I'm not ready to say more publicly on this topic.

mmm... and I just want to reiterate what shapenaji said, "And about the worst way you can convince a person to join your organization is by berating them for not joining..." The path to getting Kirby to rejoin is to change the universe to make his arguments invalid, not to try and make him change his mind. The side benefit of changing the universe is that it also attracts everyone with similar thoughts at the same time. (Not that I begrudge you your own position on the matter, of course!!)

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com