I for one have given many of my baduk books away, and I have received many from non-AGA members



I'm pretty sure Kirby has a proven track record in supporting the baduk community, both online and offline.



No, sorry, the AGA is not a charity. AGA should support current players. Maybe you are thinking of what the AGF does? Again, the "well, apparently not you" comment is an absolute farce considering what Kirby has done.

Dear all,

My name is Lisa Scott, and I am another of the board members. Although I have been reading this thread since close to when it started, I have not been commenting because I am not sure of what I can add to the conversation, and I have no desire to join in any of smaller parts of the argument that seem to be less fruitful.

I cannot really speak to the state of the organization before the end of 2006, when I joined. However, as an AGA member, I can speak to my experiences over the past 5 years. I joined the AGA because club members encouraged me to attend a tournament, and when I did I instantly met a lot people who were very involved in the AGA and passionate about go. One reason that there was such a large community was that I was living in the Baltimore area at the time, but nonetheless it made an impression on me.

I continued to attend a great number of tournaments over the next few years, including congresses. At these events, I found it very easy to get to know people of all ages and a variety of backgrounds, even though I was only 20 at my first Congress and was still relatively new to the game. I also found it very easy to talk to people about the AGA, although this may be in part because so much of the AGA's organization lives in the Baltimore-DC area.

I also found encouragement to take on any role that I was willing and able to do. This began with running the women's tournament in 2007, and continued very quickly to running the 2011 Congress and running for the Board. Because I had such good experiences, I wanted to take on these roles. This isn't to say that I haven't run into my share of current and past political issues, but I have also run into political issues in other jobs and areas of interest, and I am not sure that it is just an AGA issue.

Because of my experience, I wanted to make sure that other people had equal access to the AGA leadership, particularly in my central region that has historically been overlooked. Someone mentioned that I visited every state in my region; this is not quite true, although I would have liked to. I have visited with clubs in person in 13 states out of the 26 that make up my region, and have visited with other clubs over the phone. If I had the leisure time, I would absolutely visit the other states and revisit those that I visited 18 months ago, but running last year's Congress and getting married this summer, while working on my PhD, make that difficult. Nonetheless, just like Daniel, I encourage everyone to contact me about any AGA- or go-related issue.

My enthusiasm for the AGA certainly doesn't mean that I don't recognize the many problems that we have. General dissatisfaction with how problems were being handled and solved in why I ran for the board. Like Daniel, after being elected I realized that many of the AGA's issues are harder to solved than I had thought. There are a number of reasons for this, many of them very hard to put a finger on and even harder to fix. There is no doubt that part of the problem is that we are a volunteer organization, and I am very aware that if we would like to develop further and become more professional, we will have to develop a model that includes employees who can handle many of the day-to-day problems. This is, however, extremely difficult to do. Our entire year budget is currently around $60,000, after having been trimmed a great deal over the past few years (I'm sorry, off the top of my head I don't know how much, particularly since much of the trimming happened before I joined the board). While there may be items that I occasionally think we could trim, many of these costs are very very hard to eliminate. This means that in order to grow, and spend money on promotion, full-time accountable staff, etc., we need more income.

Personally, I have qualms about depending on donations for our day-to-day needs. I believe that, particularly in a world where financial stability is questionable, this is not the best business model. This means that we need to grow income through membership and sales of various kinds, something that is difficult to do without the means to successfully solicit members, or really to invest in promotion and services the way that most of us would like to do. This is a real issue, but one that needs real ideas in order to be solved.

We have started working on the long-called-for strategic plan. The list of tasks that Daniel referred to a few days ago was our stop-gap effort to create a specific list of tasks that we would like to accomplish or start accomplishing over the next 6 months, while we work on a more long-term plan. In the minutes, you can see that we agreed to make a new medium-term plan every year, with the hopes of creating long-term plans in the near future. I know that Daniel conscientiously watches what people say here on L19, and he frequently refers to what he has learned here when expressing ideas about what we can do to improve.

I have tried to briefly and abstractly touch on a number of topics with this post. I hope that I have not given fodder to nit-picky arguments, since this was not my intention. My intention was to express agreement with the sentiment that HKA expressed, and to show how positive my experience has been (of course, not without its ups and downs, but on the whole). I am extremely happy that the AGA exists, and that it has introduced me to a community of go players here and around the world. Because of my experience with tournaments and go clubs here, I have attended clubs and events in Madrid, Prague, and Vienna while visiting or living in those places, and I have made friends around the world. Of course, this can be done online as well, but there is something wonderful about actually making friends in another country or city, and having real "locals" who I can talk to when traveling. Of course, experiences vary.

Right now, I believe that a large portion of the AGA leadership is interested in reforming and renewing the organization, and we are working hard to do so. Just as with all things, the initial steps may not be outwardly visible, but we are working to create a more modern, more efficient organization.

I apologize if I rambled a bit, or if there is any incoherence in anything I said (it's still early).

Lisa

I never used the word selfish in my post, and shapenaji claims that Kirby is not being selfish, and ultimately there is nothing wrong with being selfish, but how is this not simply making a decision based soley on its impact to the self, it is, at minimum, self-ish.

But, lets face it, if responding to xed over's Kennedyeque call makes you feel good, then that is selfish too, and indeed, some would argue, if the AGA is a mess, then you are stupidly feeling good and wasting your money.

Look, go is a hobby, a pastime. People swim in an out of it. Sometimes they are focused on spawning and lose interest. Sometimes they get really hooked, but the hook slips, and they swim away. The AGA needs to find better ways to set that hook, and reel players in. This is more and more difficult as more and more online ways of swimming develop.

So, my comments are not directed to the new players, the casual players, the occaisional players. If Go is not important enough for them to spend $30 a year, I completly get that, and the AGA is failing, too often, to reach out to this initial and tentative interest and bring these folks into the fold. I am in no way suggesting that the key to AGA growth is leading with the line "Give us $30 - you owe it to us" Before the internet, while there were less players, it was easier to get them and easier to keep them. Now this is a real problem.

My comments were reacting to Kirby's remarks and I certainly do not mean to attack him. Indeed, I praise his interest and enthusiasm. To me, he is someone who gets Go, who is hooked. This is all to the good. I simply disagree with him.

He is not a casual player, in my view. He seems pretty committed to the game, I would assume he loves the game in fact. He cares enough to belong and interact with go players that he has posted over 3,000 times here. He has a child, as I do, for whom this game is a part of the child's culture. He wishes there were more tournaments in his area. He loves reading about go events in the ejournal, he attends go events when he visits Korea.

Apparently, he believes that in the future, there will simply be tournaments in his area, spontaneously. That opportunities for his child to play and learn go with other children will appear serendiptiously and at his convenience. That the go activities he loves to read about online for free organize themselves - both here and in Asia - without the financial support of sponsors and fans. That when he and his family are ready to go to a Go Congress in eight or ten or twelve years, Paul Barchilon will still be there ready to entertain and teach as only he can.

I do not see Kirby as someone who is just trying out go. I think he sees it as part of his future, and perhaps hopes his child's future. He cares deeply about the game and is not shy to share his opinions about go, and the AGA in particular - and he has even made the effort to volunteer to do things for it.

It seems to me, that Kirby understands what go is all about, he is commited to having this game be a part of his life and a part of his future.

It seems to me that Kirby should realize that supporting the AGA does, selfishly, support his future hopes for this game. I think most of the serious posters here should be able to see that $30, a forgettable dinner for two without alcholol, is a small price to pay for the future.

It is right to criticize and suggest better ways of doing things - but for those of us who care about this game, it is foolish to assume that tournaments and congresses will be there in the future and only care about a few Go Worlds.

_________________
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

There seem to be quite a few people who really have little to do directly with face-to-face go but almost entirely play on line. On line go is about the only option for people who live in areas where there are no clubs. I liked the comment that without go organizations there might well be no on line go for English speakers. All the go servers arose from face-to-face playing. Yes, when the internet came into existence it was probably inevitable that go servers would be created. But even now the biggest and most active servers are in Asian countries and are close to inaccessible for most Western players. As for money, how does kgs exist? Is it "sponsored" by some generous person or company or does it depend on donations or advertising?

If you don't play face-to-face go it may seem like you get no benefit from supporting the AGA. However, as I tried to say above, without the AGA the go world would likely be very different, with many things people like not existing. Without the AGA there would be no USA participation in the WAGC, pros from the Asian countries mostly wouldn't visit, and there would be even less corporate sponsorship of go in the USA. A final question, how does organized go in the USA (the AGA) differ from similar organizations in Europe? We hear a lot about AGA politics here on L19x19 but there is similar stuff going on in Europe (e.g. Italy and Russia).

To HKA:

yeah, clearly I'm not as good with words as I like to think I am. I had/have no intention of guilting anyone into joining. And Kirby (and anyone else) has every right to join or not join -- his choice. Its just beyond my understanding why any committed go player would not want to be a part of their national organization, especially at such a low fee.

I think KGS used to have a sponsorship from Kiseido, but they went their separate ways. Now I believe it supports itself via KGS Plus subscriptions.

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Occupy Babel!

I'm a bit wary about "virtuous" arguments. A parable may be relevant here:

In the Spring and Autumn Period, there was a country called Lu. Lu had a policy that gives rewards to citizens who see a fellow countrymen in slavery and frees them (usually through purchasing them and then releasing them). One of Confucius's disciples (Zi Gong) was pretty well-off, and freed a number of slaves but declined the rewards.

When Confucius heard of Zi Gong's actions, he criticized it harshly because he expects that those who are not as well-off (the majority of Lu's population) would be less inclined to free slaves. For Zi Gong the acceptance the reward has no cost since his virtuous actions is not harmed, but the refusal to accept "raises the bar" (those who do accept rewards may be thought of as being greedy) on what is expected and for those who are not well-off it may become too costly for them to free slaves without the reward.

Confucius considered that everything boils down to 义 (I guess "morals/righteousness" is not a great translation, but will suffice) and 利 (profit). Zi Gong's actions have made what was a win-win situation for all sides (Lu promotes righteous acts from citizens/helps citizens who are enslaved, citizens are given a chance to be righteous without monetary loss) into a trade-off between profit and ethics.

Coincidentally, there is another parable in which another of Confucius's student saves a drowning man and accepts a cow/bull as payment. Confucius praised him because it encourages others to save those in danger.

It's not completely relevant since $30 is not as costly, but I think there is a real disutility in not seeing value for what was paid. It may make more sense to try to increase the perceived value to members (and in this case I think spreading the game is an acceptable benefit - but it must be demonstrated to members instead of rhetorics*) rather than simply claiming that it is "good" to pay.

TL;DR version: reducing the gap between perceived value and what is paid makes more sense than "ask not what AGA can do for you...".

* Again, I have no clue how the AGA is doing. It might be that they are doing a good job and communicating it well or that they are doing a good job but not communicating it well.

Well, lets not get apocalyptic about this. Kirby's $30 will probably not be the difference between the existence of tournaments and congresses and their absence.

Kirby is, however, pretty representative of a certain group of go players in this country,

This conversation is interesting, since it gives us a very good idea of (what should be) a fertile demographic for growth. The question is, how best to bring them into the fold?

Shipping Keith around the country to convince people will probably be too expensive. (But we can try a pilot program with air-freight and see how it goes)

Keith is right about the advantages that Kirby's group gains from the AGA. But, the only way to reach out to those go players not currently considering a membership is with promotions like the one Kirby was suggesting.

We need membership drives. And promotions to hook folks.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Lisa,

Thanks very much for your post.

It seems like there are some new people on board whose perceptions indicate that there is a problem and seem to see it clearly.

With only $60k to work with, it will be difficult.

Please keep in mind that there are relatively few AGA members or potential members who read these threads. Imo, things like you just wrote would be best presented perhaps via the eJournal and/or the website. From out here in the distant parts of the Go world, the AGA comes off as rather aloof and distant, dry.

Receiving the eJournal for a number of years, you'd never know who any of the people in the AGA are except for Chris Garlock. You'd never know what was going on, being discussed, or IF ANY HELP WAS NEEDED.

If there is anything on the website, I missed it.

This might be a place to start?

Per my earlier post, I would be happy to try to help in any way that I can.

Regards,

_-_-bearzbear


PS. it is nice that there are new faces on the scene and involved now.

but I think the question is, not how to hook people initially, but rather its how to keep them hooked.

"...keep them hooked."

This is interesting. If you frame this the right way it is interesting.

Turn it around. Why are people leaving? I don't mean the specifics (again). The way I want to frame it is in more conceptual and general terms. What would that mean? The answer that I see is that when people's expectations are not met, that is when they become disinterested and disillusioned.

So, taking that and looking at the situation with the AGA, you can ask what expectations are being set up and what expectations are not being met?

I think a look at it this way will be revealing of many of the underlying reasons that people leave the AGA.

Turned around again, if the AGA did not set up expectations that were not being met, people would be more inclined to accept what it is.

Set up the proper expectations and the perception of the membership will go up, EVEN if nothing is very much different!

_-_-bearzbear

I would say a majority of people I know first signed up for tournaments. In that case we need more of them. I really would like to see an organized online league/tournament by the AGA.

True, but at the same time, there's a certain degree of "Flowers and chocolates" that needs to take place first.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...

"Hi. Welcome to the AGA website. We will respond to your inquiry within 6 months."

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Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Well, of course I like the analogy since I created it. Of course, an iphone app maker is a guy that is trying to make money, but they also help the go community. For example, SmartGo Kifu is excellent software, and someone that stumbles upon it in the app store may come to get interested in go, and want to know more. By supporting an iphone app maker, you are providing them support that they can use for future apps, and future things that benefit the go community. I think this is similar to the way that your money toward the AGA goes toward potential for future benefits to the go community by the AGA.

The main point of my analogy is to point out that the AGA does not equal "go". With today's technology, there are a number of contributors to the go community - some even do their work for free.

And I am all for supporting such contributors - go iphone app makers, the AGA, the gogameguru website, etc. I am simply saying that the AGA is just one of many contributors to the go community, and I do not feel any obligation to them financially. There are tons of players in the go community, and right now, the AGA doesn't seem to be providing much for me personally.

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be immersed

My example is hypothetical - I haven't made (well, finished) a go app, yet, either. What I am saying is that paying the AGA 30 dollars a year is not necessarily the most efficient way to support the go community in my eyes. If I wanted to support the go community, I would start in an area that I can influence directly - my local neighborhood. I think that this is more effective than throwing money into a pot that won't see my neighbor anytime soon.

Ironically (?), I have supported the AGA e-journal in the past. If you look back in your email inbox, you might notice a familiar name for the guy that put together the AGA yearbook around the end of 2010. I must say, from that experience, I do have a lot of respect for Chris Garlock. He does a lot of work, and there is a ton of content that he manages to put together. I think that's one of the reasons that the e-journal is highlighted among what the AGA does.

Still, while I think his efforts are great, it is not a necessity for me to get the e-journal. Like I said, I can just get news online. I think his efforts are great, but it's not really a reason for me to buy membership. Of course, there is the free version of the journal available, which I subscribe to. If the free version were taken away, I'd probably just look at go news online.

I guess what I'm saying is that, I do not discount the efforts that people are making toward contributing toward go. But if I want to put money to use to help my go community, I think the most efficient way to do so is to do so locally - starting with the guy next door, or my friends at work.

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be immersed

I think the reason that I only think about the immediate benefit that I get from being a part of the AGA is because I do not really see the need for an organization related to go in the USA. If the AGA did not exist, I am sure that people interested in go would still write about it online. I'm sure that people would still play go online. I'm sure that I can continue to study the game as I please for the rest of my life.

The only real hope for the future that I have in such an organization that the internet doesn't already provide on a regular basis are, perhaps, tournaments and go congress.

But tournaments can be organized without the AGA. University clubs do it all the time. Admittedly, they typically do it through the AGA, but the only thing that that means is that the game results are recorded into the AGA database. If the AGA were not there, the same clubs could organize the same tournaments, and people could still play.

Go congress does sound kind of cool, I'll admit. It may be worth the investment to pay $30 a year for the chance that I will be able to go to go congress someday, I suppose.

But many things related to go can be done without an organization. I have 5 go boards at my house, and game timers. It'd be easy enough for me to sponsor a mini tournament at my house, even, if I wanted to do a tournament.

So I guess the main thing that I do not see from the thing I "should realize" is why an organization is necessary for my future hopes of the game. In the future, with or without the AGA, I can study go, play go, read about go, and potentially even gather people at my house to play in tournaments.

Why do I need an organization?

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be immersed

What this is about is:

- Set up the proper expectations, nothing higher.
- Meet the expectations, exceed if possible
- Do not fall short.

If the only expectations one can set are modest, be humble.

Simple enough to do it would seem.

_-_-bear

Hmm, I hope you don't want to publicize your tournament, Kirby (http://usgo.org/chapters.php). I've complained bitterly in the past about that list not being up to date, but I don't know how I would have done publicity without it.

For that matter, I don't know how I'd personally have found out about the nearest go club without the AGA. It actually doesn't show up on a Google search for "Raleigh Go", "Chapel Hill Go", or "Durham Go". (Most cities that have clubs do fare better, but I've seen others where the club is also hidden).

Will the records for your tournament be around in ten years (agagd.usgo.org)? That may seem like a silly thing to worry about, but it is nice to know that someone will get them online and put them there.

Will you do ratings for your tournament? I know, I know, ratings are for silly people, but half of the people coming to your tournament are sillies.

Thanks to the e-journal, plenty of people who are not part of any club will find out about you. Maybe they live in the boonies, so when you laboriously found all the clubs you were contacting, they never got the email. But they'll see your tournament announcement, or they'll see your writeup after the fact, and they'll know you're there.

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Occupy Babel!

May I inquire why you two are arguing about the obvious?

Why are you arguing about who or what is better or not than something else?

"I'm right", "No, I'm right"? What's constructive in this?

Oh wait, maybe THIS is why the AGA is locked in stalemate? Because people argue like this? Ok, I get it now.

_-_-bearzbear