Bearzbear:

If you are not trolling, then you are simply being condescending and rude.

There's really no reason for you to be angry here, clearly your issues (whatever they are) are not new.

Daniel responded extremely politely to your condescension, and you more or less spit in his face. I'm not sure what your goal is, but saying "there's a problem, but I'm not going to tell you what it is, and let me ask you a few leading questions" is hardly the way to come to any resolution.

My only conclusion is that you're trying to get other people to join you in quitting the AGA. But I really don't see how you'd convince them if you don't tell them WHY they should.

The AGA organizes tournaments, those tournaments are "fun", as long as they do that, they'll have members. If you have an issue with the side-benefits, then enumerate those. I just don't get how a go player would suddenly go from being a tournament player to dropping off the map and never playing in tournaments again.

EDIT: I myself have been frustrated with the AGA in the past, but I try to ground my petulance in fact.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...

Ok, ok.

Putting on tournaments is one role.

I am not trying to be condescending.
Apparently I am doing an ok job at it though... Hmmm...

Let me try to say what the AGA perhaps might be able to do?

- create new and modern and perhaps interactive introduction(s) to the game for A) children, B) adults. Learn the lesson from Hikaru?

- develop and operate a "Forum" like this one for the AGA. (imo should have been done at least a decade ago, probably two)

- market and promote the game via larger media outlets: TV, Radio & print. That should read "effectively market and promote".

- establish and make reliable useful and solid associations with major professional Go organizations. (yes, the new Korean initiative has potential)

- develop a modern and interesting website (incorporate interactive elements, including graphics and Flash content) Example: do better than Jan Vandersteen's site, that's just one person's work.

- create, and place videos with semi-pro or professional quality programming for YouTube and other sites

- Use modern methods for internal database control, entry and tracking, including emails (via a central point of distribution to personnel in AGA)

- use modern methods for ease of communicating with members, including mailing control software, and means to text/graphic to modern phones.

- import content from non-USA go sources, not just short "news stories".
That is too *dry*.

- find ways to, and implement policies and means that encourage and incorporate the talents and abilities of members who have expertise in any and all appropriate areas.


There are a few, off the top of my head "bullet points".

Please don't come back and tell me how this has been done already?

Hope this gives some idea?

_-_-

**NOTE: There are no AGA employees. Only Volunteers. Some things take real work and planning.**

Has Been Done:

Our International VP is amazing. He knows the all top people overseas that are go related. He is doing a HELL of a job that never gets mentioned. Check out the 2011 International Report. You dont hear about this much because its kinda boring to the lay man.


The E-Journal doesn't count? Twitter feed for the EJ (@theaga) or Go Congress(@gocongress) don't count?
SMS has been looked into and is expensive outside of a big event.


E-Journal editor would give you large reports on things, but studies have shown people dont want huge articles in their inbox every week/day.


The new membership manager (read: huge ass database) has been updated for the 21st century online and is the best place for the administration to assist the rest of the organization.

In Progress:

This has been a work in progress since the 2011 Go Congress when we actively started on the new site. Its a huge thing and cant be slapped together in a month or two.

Will Never Happen

Why duplicate something that works? You found this ok? 12 other networks have subforums here: KGS/IGS/Kaya, American/Australian/European/Singapore Go Associations

Will Happen If We Win Lottery or Get Funded by Bill Gates/Google

All of these need money to keep them afloat. The AGA has money to put on its own events and receive donations in these forms. Check the annual reports to see how much the AGA makes per year. The last few have not been good to us.


Needs Volunteers


Will you assist the AGA in helping? Currently no one has stepped up to do this.

_________________
Decisions are made by those who show up.
and possibly those willing to attend secret meetings in ancient basements

bearzbear,

Please tell us what you tried to do, and how badly it went, and what could have improved things. PM me if you don't want to say publicly. In return I can tell you if this is an issue I'm already aware of or not, and I might just have a rough idea of how prevalent it is, and what the organization is attempting to do to fix it.

Of course, if you just came here to vent, that's fine too.

This request may seem superfluous to you, but I assure you it's not. Board members are not omniscient, we do not know what is going on unless people tell us. Unless whoever you interacted with also noticed there was a problem, they would have had no reason to tell anyone else about it, and there is no reason to expect us to already know about it.

We know there are problems, and we know they can't be fixed overnight. The best we can do until we have a systemic solution is to pick up the balls that get dropped as we find them. The more such balls people tell us details about, the better we can make the systemic solution(s).

Ah, and after I wrote that you made another post.





Volunteer(s) and/or funds needed.



It has been discussed recently. (My own opinion is that L19 is great and I don't want to monitor another forum, but that may just be me.) A website upgrade is in progress and this may be feasible soonish.



Volunteer(s) and/or funds needed.



Honestly, I think this is one thing that we actually do do OK.



I agree. We are switching to a CMS. Further improvements will hopefully be forthcoming once that is complete.



I agree, I think this is something we could probably do for a reasonable amount of money. Still, some money and volunteer time is required.



We're in the process of switching over. We have a new database that is very nice. In fact, it's possibly the best thing the organization has done in the past year, and it will make everything we do easier.



Yeah, the chapters list is down and believe me, we are all aware of this. :/



Volunteer translator/funding/copyright permission needed.



We do this currently, and I personally would actually like to get away from this. Why? Right now, if you want the AGA to do something, the only realistic way for it to happen is to volunteer and do it yourself. This is hard on volunteers and the AGA, too. It would make much more sense for us to pay a professional to do whatever the task is, but that takes money, which we don't have much of. So, right now, my thought is we need to sort of "boot-strap" ourselves up to much larger membership numbers by a) fixing the problems we have dealing with people (so please tell me what yours was!), and b) providing services which cost little and will make people happy, such as getting some original pro educational videos for members, or funding some group lessons (like KGS+, only for AGA members).

ah, vash3g beat me to it. Nice to see we basically are on the same page

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Look, I am happy that some efforts are being made. Believe me I am.

But it is now 2012, this horse is not just out of the barn, it's down the road and out of sight.

Having watched the AGA from arm's length and farther away for decades, I must relate to you that what you are saying is what has always been said.
Since that has never given much result, don't keep saying the same things?

I do understand what a volunteer organization means. And in past times, that was a very large handicap due to geographic distances. It is still a handicap, but far less than ever before.

Saying that "no one volunteers" is a failure of whomever has stepped into the role of leadership/management.

The first step to fixing this problem is to reach out and ASK FOR HELP.

I was a member for a year, receiving everything that every other member got, I never got such a request. How one requests is another issue, and WHAT one requests is equally important.

You need "money" to do video production? Really? Today video production can be done on shareware on a home computer. Are there no video/film professionals who are members who could be asked?

Same thing with websites.

Someone just pointed out this site:
http://unlimitedgo.blogspot.com/

I have never seen it before. Better than the AGA. One guy.
Are you telling me that there are NO wiz kids with web chops or IT pros who are also AGA members?? C'mon...

My point on the forum is NOT if one should be started NOW, but that it's been 10-20years since the time was right for one to be started. AGA didn't. AGA didn't start a Go server either.

Daniel, you can PM me too... btw. Perhaps we should speak on the phone or correspond via email. Maybe after the dust has settled some here and the ideas and issues are laid out more clearly?

IF the problem of participation is truly what is holding the AGA back, maybe the question becomes how can the AGA elicit active participation? Working backwards, why has this (apparently) traditionally been a problem. What can be changed to overcome this issue?

My help? Possible.

_-_-

PS. I have no idea what information you have that says that readers do not want "longer stories". Perhaps this information was developed by asking an improper question, yielding statistically valid results that do not speak to the actual issue? You have to ask the proper question to get the answer that you actually need. Example: I do not want or get "daily" updates from the AGA or any other listserve that I subscribe to - I prefer a "digest" version. In the case of the AGA that could be weekly or bi-weekly for longer and more in depth stories. Or on a website for that matter. Gee, come to think of it, I get emails from a number of professional journals and mags that do just this, send me an email with "teasers" linked to full stories. And wait a second, ya know what? Yep, there are advertisements for products and companies related to the story content right there! Hmmmm...



_-_-

Yes, you are on the same page.

The PROBLEM in short was that no one at the time I spoke to people (while I was a member) was LISTENING, understanding what was being said, or apparently interested. You can't "fix" this by my being specific.

It is unreasonable to expect members to have to drill through an organization to discover the one or two people who can or will respond properly - especially if you are shunted to the same person or persons by others...

As far as I can see, right now, people are not listening, understanding what is being said, although there is some interest - which is good.

Raising money? Is that really a problem? If it is, then something is not right with the approach that the management is taking, imo. It should be fairly easy to raise money given that the AGA is a not-for-profit org, yes?

Ya know what? I'd also bet that there are current members who are professional fund raisers. Certainly past members.

When I don't know how to do something I find people who do and figure out how to do it, or get their help.

As far as "boot strapping" you're going to have problems when you can't retain members to start with. You can't increase membership when you have a fixed pool of potential members a large percentage of which really don't want to have much to do with the AGA (unless they want to play in tournaments). And, there is nothing new, tangible to offer members. So you have a problem. A bit of Chicken & Egg.

Now, quite frankly very few people are going to want to give you money as things now stand with the AGA (read: participate in a capital program, donate money). So the job is to what did you just say, ah yes, "make the systemic solution(s)".

_-_-

Are you the dumbest person who has ever visited these boards? Because it's a non-profit, it should have an easy time raising money? In what world is that how things work?

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Ummm... yes.

Out here in the real world, yes.

Of course the recipient would have to appear meritorious.

How do you think most not-for-profits survive (other than gov't grants?)

Do you disagree?

_-_-bear

PS. please be civil and don't call me "the dumbest person who has ever visited..." Ok? How about that? Support your position with facts.

I help a "more standard" (not trying to sound bad against the AGA, but I mean NGOs in the standard sense of helping some group or spreading some more human-related message) NGO, who is in charge of helping other NGOs to have modern web pages with solid back-ends and easy to customize. Getting money is a huge pain in the ass, and more in the modern recession. A huge number of NGOs here in Spain and bordering countries have been forced to shut doors because of severe lack of funds.

_________________
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net

In his defense, claiming being non-profit solves all monetary problems is very naive.


I suggest you do the same.

Perhaps people weren't listening because you were making a similar unspecified complaint (The AGA is broken. Why don't you fix it?), with a similar stipulation that no response be deemed adequate. I am not an AGA member, but your posts have convinced me that if people at the AGA weren't listening to you, they probably had good reason.

This is not to say that your perception of the AGA's failings in necessarily wrong, but rather that your way of expressing your dissatisfaction is clearly useless and exasperating to anyone who might be in the position to either help with a specific problem or improve things in general.

While venting may or may not be understandable (like you said, nobody understands what got you so worked up), it's unreasonable for you to expect a set of vague accusations (AGA reps hide behind pseudonyms and always respond the same way to criticism/suggestions) to bring about any change.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

I'm not sure about most, but many non-profits exist by soliciting donations. And it's really freaking hard! Surprisingly enough, standing on the corner saying "hey girl, I represent a 501(3)(c) organization" is not actually a magic money making trick.

I look at your complaints and hear "from where I'm sitting here in my armchair, this stuff should be easy for you guys." Do you write letters to the editor complaining that you can't understand why no one has cured cancer yet? You don't seem to have any ideas except "someone should do something about the problem."

Hey, I guess that's true. Good work.

P.S. To everyone else, is the AGA a 501(3)(c) organization? I saw that the AGF is, but couldn't find any description of the AGA's status.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

The AGF is a 501(c)3, the AGA is a 501(c)7.

It's in the amended articles of incorporation:
http://www.usgo.org/resources/downloads ... ndment.pdf

Which means the AGA pays no income taxes on exempt-purpose net income.

But donations to the AGA are not deductible.

_________________
Founder, Central Mississippi Go Club
Free tips and resources for clubs and teaching
Go Kit Club Pack - pack of 13x13 go sets for clubs
Go Tin - very portable go

Ummm... sorry?

Where did I say that?
Obviously, what you have done is taken a reasonable statement and turned it
into hyperbole.

I NEVER said that it would "solve" any or all monetary problems.
I also did not say it would be "easy".

I did say that one can solicit and receive funds as a not-for-profit.

One of the obvious points to be made (which I did) is that the AGA can do much to position itself so that people are more likelyto contribute funds.

Suggest that it is best not to exaggerate in order to attempt to prevail in a discussion.

_-_-

You said this:


Looking at the above statement...



Btw, it would still be interesting if you specified what exactly you tried contacting AGA about. Just list the topics and the replies you got (if any). Not what you afterwards think might be worth improving in the long run.

Nonsense.
Absurdity itself.

Where did I indicate or write that no response was deemed adequate?
What leap of logic lead you to this conclusion?
Please explain?

How about the first step in terms of a response from the AGA might begin without the inane repetition of the demand to essentially "tell us who did it to you"? Obviously, the thrust of what I am trying to get across is that there is a much broader issue to deal with. Surely you were able to perceive this? Yes?



Well, perhaps you would like to paraphrase what I wrote and turn it into something that they would want to listen to? I am serious. I am willing to learn how to put these thoughts across in a way that will get "people" like those running the AGA to better understand and embrace them.

Show me please.



How so?
Why is it exasperating?
What I said is pretty clear.
Others who have read this but not posted feel otherwise...

A better question is, IF what I am saying is true (a better point of discussion, btw) then why is it so?




Heck, I'm not particularly worked up at all. Really.

If general concepts are "vague" for you, then Go is not going to be the game for you I would think. Focusing on symptoms and "specifics" does not ever address the underlying basis and causal factors. Imo, it is necessary to avoid the "specifics" and not get bogged down in tactics, leave that alone until the strategy is understood and the concepts that form the foundation for the strategy is clear.

_-_-bear


PS. it is funny how people read and pick things out to focus upon. The discussion of the AGA reps "hiding" behind pseudonyms, came about because THEY kept asking me what my email was so that they could somehow correct the terrible 'wrong'. To which I responded that no one of them had at that point said who they were or what their role in the AGA was... and regarding the response, well yes it has been rather consistently the same. Hasn't it?

Ooops... I did say "fairly easy". Not quite easy. But fairly easy.

Ok, let me amend, a non-zero potential.

Fairly easy compared to doing nothing... btw.

I gave a long list of "topics".
But I keep saying, it's not any specific item - those are symptoms.
It's the overall picture that is not so good.

Go analogy: "tell us which move you are having a problem with, we can fix that move"?

It's not any one move, it's how you think about the game, the fuseki is slow, joseki is misplayed, etc... Sure, you are on the Go board, playing the game called Go, but the moves ur making are inefficient, slow and not terribly sophisticated as go moves go.

Is it good enough to just play at a middle single digit kyu level?
Sure, for a person.
What would a strong player looking at a middle digit kyu player that has not advanced their game in 20 years say or think about that player?
How could they possibly help that player realize that there was something basic about their game that was *never* going to work better if they keep doing the same thing over and over??
What if that player kept insisting that they are doing everything fine?
What if that player made statements about what they were doing and lists of what they were studying and going to do differently?
What if over time nothing much really changed in that players game?
What then?

Would you try to tell that player that their approach to the game was wrong??
Would you try to talk to them in general terms about how to think about the game??. Try to bring some enlightenment? Impart a deeper understanding?
What would you do?

Most people just shake their heads - those who know and can see - and walk away.
Those 75%-90% who drop their membership. Those people.

But I'm suggesting that the AGA has been playing the same middle digit kyu "game" for decades.

Ok now?

_-_-bearzbear

Hi, I am former AGA member, membership lapsed in 2008



You should develop project ideas first, then ask for volunteers and funding for specific ideas next. Many people will ignore volunteering if you will just "Help out the AGA."



Acutally, it makes me disappointed that AGA resources are used for this. Including the pro system, AGA currently supports super new beginners and the top 1% of amateurs very well. There are very few resources available for 15k-5d players.



Please please, give a preview of this. The other person's comment on this was also very rude, I thought.

Kaya.gs did a good job giving a youtube video or other screenshots. This made people very excited. They now donate to Kaya and also volunteer their time to add code to the source repository. This ties back into what I am saying about creating project ideas then advertising volunteer positions for them.

Please visit the Competitive Scrabble website, cross tables. They have player bios with rank graphs, and a place to upload commented games from tournaments. Many strong players upload their own commented games. Why can't AGA have something like this? The scrabble community is much smaller...
http://www.cross-tables.com/
http://www.cross-tables.com/results.php?p=583
http://www.cross-tables.com/annotated.php?a=80#0#

It pains my heart to see a nice resource like that, not available in my mind game.



Again, advertise this idea. Make a couple test cases. The KBA has a whole series of videos like boom your sense up, and others for higher level on wbaduk site. Recording to an AGA youtube account free audio lessons on KGS by AGA members would be a huge improvement, and would just be riffing on an available source of information.



Preview! Get people excited! You gotta sell yourself well to get those greenbacks!



GoGameGuru? Also, someone said that studies show people prefer short stories? Source? I love the long articles at GoGameGuru.

[/quote]

Maybe you have too much red tape, is what you are saying? I am VP on an NPO, I've seen organizations crumble because the board becomes too full of people that just like to pass new rules and slow decision making processes down. It is much better to have a fluid process.

Also, I know this bear guy is being a jerk, but some of the self identifying board members here have demonstrated a lack in professionalism. When you have an irate customer, its always better to be professional when dealing with them. Generally they'll calm down. Having a rock solid attitude brings people towards your attitude, whether it be a bad or good attitude. Don't take it so personally in the future.

bearzbear,

We know we have problems. Are you venting, or are you trying to help us fix them? You're acting like you're doing us a favor, giving us a big revelation, when actually, we all already know all this stuff. And the one thing you could tell us that we don't know, you won't say anything about. This is not a recipe for a successful interaction.

So if we know this stuff, why isn't it fixed already?

Short answer: turns out, it's a lot harder than you would think.

I've only been a board member for 5 months.

I have a list of things I want the AGA to start/stop doing. When people give me good, concrete suggestions I add to that list. When people tell me, "I did X, I expected Y to happen, but instead Z happened," I mentally add or improve my list of problems that need solutions. When people make vague complaints, I... don't really know what to do about that.

I ran for the board because I had basically the same list of complaints that you seem to. I won because no one else ran.

I haven't accomplished a whole lot yet. I did get the board to start sending "press releases" to the e-journal so people will have some idea what we're up to. This is because lack of communication seems to be one of the worst problems. But there is a lot left to do.

The only way anything gets passed by the board is if it is a concrete proposal with a champion (some board member or AGA official). That's not ideal, but I think it's the way nearly all boards function. The only way anything happens in the organization is if a volunteer does it. Ideas without volunteers already lined up are total non-starters.

I agree that the results of those two facts are unacceptable, that we need to and could be doing much better. I'm trying to fix it, and so are a number of other people inside the organization.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Thanks so very much.

_-_-