I did not renew my AGA membership.

direwolf · **#81**

in another part of the october minutes they state...

Quote:

there have been cases in the past where not only Board members’ families but also significant others and maybe domestic partners were paid by the AGA, which is a conflict of interest.

So now we have partisan bickering, nothing being done, faulty practices, and a conflict of interests. This is just from the last board minutes. Should I continue?

And people wonder why people are leaving the AGA?

Mef · **#82**

hyperpape wrote:

xed_over wrote:

Cross tables, rank graphs, a place to upload commented games...
http://agagd.usgo.org/

The ability to upload commented games is either not well known or not something people care about. I'd like to assume it's the former (at least since people do upload games to the European Go Database).

I'd suggest that there be an ejournal article about it, and that there be a habit of uploading the games that are broadcast to the USGO accounts on KGS.

It's also not obvious how you can see the game records that are currently included in the database. Is there a quick way to view that?

I'll pass both suggestions on to the ejournal and database manager in a day or two--just putting this out there so y'all can comment.

I'd also like to see this feature used more (once I can find the game records I think I'll try to upload my own games...). A mention in the EJ would be a great way to raise awareness. Perhaps it will become more popular once the upload functionality gets automated.

msgreg · **#83**

I for one appreciate the detailed minutes from the AGA. Robert's rules state that the content of discussion need not be transcribed in the minutes: only motions and vote results should be in the minutes. I expect for just the reason as demonstrated in this thread. The quotes from the minutes are taken somewhat out of context, being the opinion of one of the board members, not the board as a whole or even a plurality. There are often people who believe the sky is falling and that the ship should be abandoned and that the president and board are doing a horrible job.

My advice: run for president if you think you can do better. At least follow Daniel's path and run for the board. Start attending meetings, learn the personalities, start affect change from within. Help rewrite the bylaws, or suggest bylaw wording to your representative. It's much harder than I think you think. You must balance all the different opinions on the board. You must come up with standardized policies and procedures that work for a variety of situations. Change takes working with others, change takes careful assessment of all known information and opinion, change takes bravery to put yourself out there while people criticize, change takes understanding beyond any superficial analysis in this thread, change takes endless persuasion of others, change takes years.

From my reading of the minutes' the board seems to be somewhat focused at the right level. The discussions, opinions, and disagreements seem fairly normal.

Instead of rehashing the AGA's perceived problems continue to make concrete and viable suggestions.

For example: for keeping up with requests and communications, consider investigating an issue tracking system like Redmine or a hosting service. This could be a next priority after the majority of the website migration has occurred.

Also, one huge benefit to local clubs perhaps could be a national registration system where national and club dues are collected and club dues get funneled back to the club. First determine how many clubs could/would use such a system.

hyperpape · **#84**

The payments issue is real, and unfortunate. It's also actively being discussed, and it looks like it's being fixed. That it's taken until now to be dealt with is a sign that things often did fester, but I think that's an example where the AGA is improving.

And I see plenty of other examples. I think it's good that Daniel, but also Andy and Lisa have spent time communicating with people here on the boards. Hilltopgo (Mike Malveaux?) is doing great work, the website migration is taking time, but I've seen lots of evidence that people are working hard on it. I remember a lot of discussions with seigenblues on the board that suggested he was doing a lot of interesting work.

The AGAGD is another relatively recent (2, 3 years old?) development, and a really welcome one.

I guess I can't prove any of these things will matter in the long term, but I have a hard time thinking the AGA is in stasis or headed for disaster.

P.S. I'm pretty sure these forums have an attrition rate of over 50%, even excluding the 500 or so registered users who never posted. Heck, I bet the game of go has a 90% attrition rate in the West.

p2501 · **#85**

Popcorn anyone?

direwolf · **#86**

I think you missed my earlier post. I have been involved in the go community with the AGA and internationally. I was a long time AGA member and will not renew.

Quote:

the quotes from the minutes are taken somewhat out of context, being the opinion of one of the board members, not the board as a whole or even a plurality. There are often people who believe the sky is falling and that the ship should be abandoned and that the president and board are doing a horrible job.

You are right in that comments are not typically put into minutes, but this is a unique view into the internal workings of the AGA. A director is not a sole member of the board, they are elected to represent a geographic area. If he/she goes off and makes wild comments, there can and should be penalties. Most of these people have been re-elected you would think that the area that they are representing would not do that if they were acting against their wishes. Also, before making these comments or proposals, I for one would consult with the groups that I represent and see if this is a track that should be taken.

So either way, you have a segment that is unhappy with the way things are being done and/or there is a total disconnect of the leadership and the membership. Which is it?

with the comment about contacting chapter representitives...

Quote:

Smith said he called an expired chapter representative in Montana, and he said he hadn’t thought about the AGA in ten years. Smith said the Board should contact chapter representatives more than once per decade.

This along with my past experiences with the AGA, I can only assume there is both going on here.

gowan · **#87**

As for the comment about ineffective regional representatives being re-elected, I think most ordinary AGA members don't pay attention to most of what goes on at board meetings. Most ordinary members just want to play go and aren't interested in AGA politics so they don't know whether their regional representative has an axe to grind or is out to get another AGA official. Also, if I recall correctly, it has been difficult to find people to run for positions on the board. The critics who go on and on about the AGA not taking up their (obvious) ideas should just put their money where their mouth is. More suggestions of what to do aren't needed but more people who are actually willing to do some work are sorely needed. We all know that the AGA is an organization managed by volunteers, almost all of whom have a full time job outside the AGA. Recently a list of jobs that could be done as one time projects by volunteers was published and discouragingly few people actually offered to do any of the jobs. I certainly understand that people don't have time to take on a job for the AGA but someone who passionately criticizes ought to have some energy to put into actually doing something productive rather than just criticize.

bearzbear · **#88**

Perhaps the kind gentlemen in Germany and Austria have a perspective that is removed by a few thousand miles of water, and the fact that the EGF is vibrant along with the Go scene by comparison to what has been going on in the USA for decades now?

Again, folks seem to be having a difficulty discerning between specific and individual actions and let's say "corrections" that are currently being taken for the good and the general and overall strategy, policy and execution at present and over long years of time.

It's great that things are being "fixed" as they break. Maintenance is good. Everyone is happy about that.

Ok, after the maintenance is done, then what? More of the same? Continue on as-is? Soldier on? Everything is just fine, so no need to re-think or do anything differently?

WRT the detailed minutes. It is good that this information was made public. That perhaps technically and legally (I do not know the answer) none of it need be, begs the point entirely.

WRT "concrete" proposals and "volunteers" to carry them through? Sure. Absolutely. But it is the job and task of the leadership to not only solicit proposals and ideas but to provide an effective means by which they can be evaluated and implemented (where and when possible and appropriate). The key here is that there is no effective means by which a member can hold much of a conversation with the leadership, especially where the topic is not particularly "enjoyable".

As far as my "concrete" proposals, I made them. They might seem a bit strong or outlandish. But who has thought them through, truly? Who has said even "maybe"?

Do you see the emotionally charged and highly defensive reactions here in a public forum? Most people just walk away - know why? Because Go is just NOT that important to them. It's not worth fighting for or about.
For things to go well with the AGA the leadership simply has to self recognize the need, and be willing to make changes.

These sorts of messages - not from me at all - but from others have bombarded the AGA at regular intervals and times for DECADES. It's not deniable and not NEWS.

Regarding this organization & membership, the idea that people drop out anyway, so there is nothing to do is absurd. Stating what was said earlier in a very simple way.

_-_-bearzbear

PS. Daniel I did send you an email, no reply yet...

direwolf · **#89**

In the past I have offered my services to the AGA for anything that is needed. I got no response in return. I never pushed an Idea or an agenda, I offered services. Help with the aga website if needed. help with database systems, if needed. just tell me what you need and I will do it. I work for one of the largest state college systems in portal/systems integration and you would think that the AGA would have a need.

I have assisted in organizing 2 go club around where I live. Assisted in running go tournaments for clubs and also online. Attended congresses and sat in General assembly meetings. So, please do not do the... you gotta step up to the plate. I have done that.

direwolf · **#90**

I forgot to add. I understand that most people just want to play go. I am the same way.

BUT.... what the AGA leadership does reflects on us as a Go community. If the leadership is seen as having issues we will never have any good standing.

Let me just put it this way. I know of some congress organizers who went to dinner with a very strong foreign pro. The pro spoke impecable english. when talk came around to the AGA and what it was thought of outside the US... The pro pretended not to understand English. you read between the lines.

daniel_the_smith · **#91**

direwolf wrote:

In the past I have offered my services to the AGA for anything that is needed. I got no response in return. I never pushed an Idea or an agenda, I offered services. Help with the aga website if needed. help with database systems, if needed. just tell me what you need and I will do it. I work for one of the largest state college systems in portal/systems integration and you would think that the AGA would have a need. ...

Yeah, that's a problem. Unfortunately if you told the wrong person (through no fault of your own, of course), communication is poor enough that probably the right person would have never found out. Can you PM me who you told, and when (if you can remember)? Obviously there's probably nothing I can do to make it right at this point, but the more such details I have, the better decisions/recommendations I'll be able to make.

Obtaining and taking good care of volunteers is extremely important to me, for obvious reasons. I include below a part of a recommendation that Lisa, Allan, and I made back in November as the result of our discussion of what the "improve the member experience" priority might mean practically.

Quote:

Ask more of the volunteer coordinator:
* The volunteer coordinator should call all new volunteers, and tell them who they can call/email if they need help or direction. Should tell them who else has worked on this task or similar tasks in the past (or present).
* Perhaps the volunteer coordinator could give them a personalized organizational chart with names and phone numbers on it.
* The volunteer should call all recurring volunteers at least once per year; progress on this should be noted publicly (the same way board member phone calls are tracked).
* The volunteer coordinator should be in regular enough contact with volunteers to notice when they feel overworked.
* The volunteer coordinator should maintain a list on the website of current projects and their statuses, so that members can see what the AGA is doing and how they can help. Major accomplishments or needs should be announced in the e-journal.
* Of course, for this to be possible, the volunteer coordinator should be informed whenever someone begins volunteering. Everyone who is capable of recruiting volunteers needs to be informed of this.
* This is a lot of work, so perhaps regional volunteer coordinator positions can be created as appropriate and as people become available to fill such positions. The volunteer coordinator would then have the task of coordinating between the regional coordinators.

The month before that, when the board was discussing our priorities for the year ahead, I made this suggestion, which turned into the priority "improve the member experience" (and if I hadn't said something of this nature, Lisa probably would have-- I'm not the only person on the board thinking about these things):

Quote:

1. Fix the AGA "user experience."
Sub-ideas:
* Make interacting with the AGA as easy as possible (example: no one had been looking at the email to the webmaster while the position was vacant; lots of requests had gone unnoticed for months).
* Don't overload/overwork volunteers; make sure volunteers get public recognition.
* Improve/fix/change whatever the AGA does now to make a system which: a) notices when a volunteer goes AWOL and recovers, b) doesn't make volunteers feel like we don't trust them, and c) reduces the chance that volunteers will go AWOL.
* Create a "How to run an AGA chapter" document. Send it to new chapters. (method: task someone with soliciting feedback from current chapter reps and compiling it. Have someone else edit it.)
* Create a chapter mentorship system. Obtain and publish a list of chapter reps who are willing and able to help new chapters get started. Make sure everyone knows who to contact when they have a question they don't know the answer to.
* Announce our goals in the ejournal so members can hold us accountable. Inform the membership about what the board is doing; I think there ought to be a position, held by one of the board members, with a job description of keeping members informed. This person would do things like write press releases for the ejournal, etc. Posting the minutes to the website is not enough; people don't read them and they're a month behind anyway. If you all agree, I'll volunteer.

I'm posting all this up here so that hopefully you guys can see that we recognize that we have a problem, have recognized that for some time-- and that continuing to tell us how bad our problems are isn't a useful thing to do at the moment. Concrete suggestions are welcome, moreso if they are things that are actually feasible.

direwolf · **#92**

Dan,

thanks for the response. I responded with details of what is wrong that everyone was questioning Bearz on. As you know, there is a long long list of issues that go way back that are systemic in nature. I commend you on the work you do and the positive responses you have given. For me, i would suggest creating a 10yr strategic plan and have it published. give us 10 items that the AGA would like to do in 10yrs. each year publish a score card of what was done and how the AGA is going to accomplish another part of the plan.

what happens now is that a project needs a champion to get ti thru the board and possibly to completion. If that person leaves or stops for what ever reason, that project falls by the wayside later to be picke up and many times redone by someone else.

This should not happen, the AGA needs a person/people in charge who are true leaders and vision to accomplish what is needed.

bearzbear · **#93**

Daniel,

It seems like you are trying to work in the right direction. That's good.
I like what you are saying.

Did you get my email?

Also, in the event that it got lost in the melee here, I did post that I would be happy to help in whatever way that I can.

To repeat one of my suggestions, it might be good for the AGA to look at how some other professional organizations that are thriving with a similar size "market" are organized?

Adding on to that, I suspect that by hiring full or part time persons to fill positions such as the volunteer coordinator or better still the person who handles the "day to day" coordinating there would be far better continuity from day to day and over long periods of time.

(anticipating the objection: these days one can work via online... so no overheads there)

(yes, anything like this has to be funded by some means... that is a tactical consideration that needs to be addressed subsequent to finding this to be an appropriate approach. At least it should be considered and studied, maybe tested)

But, what this alone says is that the AGA is improperly organized and as constituted presently is unable to effectively carry out many of the most basic tasks and reach simple goals.

Go analogy: you want to win games, get ur opening right first before worrying about which pro to emulate...etc.

At least two posters have suggested means by which incoming calls and emails can be tracked, and not lost. I haven't seen a post that acknowledged that this is something to do, and that it would be seriously looked into at all...

The "volunteer" thing. It seems to me that the "volunteer coordinator" idea is not a good way to do things. Since that depends on the abilities, time and interest of a single person, the outcome is unclear. Volunteers are crucial to the operation of the AGA. A policy and strategy of "inclusion" needs to be at the very core of the AGA.

While I was a member, and for a longer time receiving the eJournal, I can not recall one single indication, notice or other statement that in any way invited members to participate. Nothing I have seen or read at any time at all (it may be there, but I did not see it) coming OUT of the AGA has suggested anything other than the AGA leadership is telling everyone what they have decided. Top down 100%.

It's not a friendly, open or welcoming tone or image.

I have heard and read of stories of vicious political infighting.

Daniel, let's say ur on the right track. What happens if you suddenly are gone? Why will the basic organization not veer off course and back to the current state IF the underlying "way that things are done" isn't changed?

_-_-bearzbear

daniel_the_smith · **#94**

bearzbear, I responded to your email earlier, I guess you haven't seen it yet.

Also, I don't think you noticed this thread: viewtopic.php?p=90384#p90384

I guess I wasn't clear: I would like to see some redundancy in AGA volunteer positions, so that things do not depend on single individuals. This includes the volunteer coordinator.

Quote:

While I was a member, and for a longer time receiving the eJournal, I can not recall one single indication, notice or other statement that in any way invited members to participate.

Allan has solicited feedback via email from strong players (>=5d) and pros on two issues in the past month. I am now here listening. This issue is being fixed.

Quote:

Daniel, let's say ur on the right track. What happens if you suddenly are gone? Why will the basic organization not veer off course and back to the current state IF the underlying "way that things are done" isn't changed?

Others are working towards the same goals I am. I do not plan on being a board member forever. The thing where the board sends the ejournal press releases after each meeting? I volunteered to do that on the condition that the board make it an ongoing position, so it will outlive my presence (they did, and it will). My goal is to get the system into a state where the individual people can drop balls and everything will still work fine, and then go back to playing go.

This is a pretty ambitious goal, and I'm not arrogant enough to just start trying to attempt to take over and force everyone to do things my way. That is the path towards being the idiot in books and movies who takes over the business and just about destroys it, because they don't take the time to understand why things are the way they are. I'm in the process of learning how things work and why from the inside, and I intend to attempt only incremental changes at this point in time.

The people running the AGA are not stupid, yet the AGA has many problems. Why? A number of reasons, but a big one is because they are difficult to fix.

OK, I have to go, so I'll cut this short.

badukJr · **#95**

gowan wrote:

As for the comment about ineffective regional representatives being re-elected, I think most ordinary AGA members don't pay attention to most of what goes on at board meetings. Most ordinary members just want to play go and aren't interested in AGA politics so they don't know whether their regional representative has an axe to grind or is out to get another AGA official. Also, if I recall correctly, it has been difficult to find people to run for positions on the board. The critics who go on and on about the AGA not taking up their (obvious) ideas should just put their money where their mouth is. More suggestions of what to do aren't needed but more people who are actually willing to do some work are sorely needed. We all know that the AGA is an organization managed by volunteers, almost all of whom have a full time job outside the AGA. Recently a list of jobs that could be done as one time projects by volunteers was published and discouragingly few people actually offered to do any of the jobs. I certainly understand that people don't have time to take on a job for the AGA but someone who passionately criticizes ought to have some energy to put into actually doing something productive rather than just criticize.

I don't think in any organization more than 10% of the members pay attention to what happens at board meetings. Ultimately each individual member must determine if the end services the org provides satisfies them. They could care less about the process. I apologize I offer only criticism and not my time, I personally have absolutely too much on the table right now. Later, in June, when one of my commitments ends, I will re-evaluate.

In general, I believe criticisms is much more productive than a member who leaves the org without comment. The other poster said that if a critic can do better, they should run for president. This is a really sour attitude, and should not be a response to members of an org. Yes, they are volunteers, but when you begin volunteering for something you should know that its absolutely thankless. You do it because you believe in the cause. This is what makes volunteers so great, but they should not be shielded from criticism. As a volunteer elsewhere, I welcome criticism to improve my process. Yeah, there will be insane people who sound off with inane suggestions, you just learn to deal with it. People will end up hating your guts.

That said, I believe the AGA board members (not the LI19x19 board members, i think the term caused confusion) in the thread have given really good feedback and I've been really satisfied with their approach. I thoroughly hope that those who seek to streamline the process at the AGA can gain consensus from the rest of the board to such changes.

msgreg · **#96**

badukJr wrote:

The other poster said that if a critic can do better, they should run for president. This is a really sour attitude, and should not be a response to members of an org.

Yes, sorry. This was me. My comment was a reaction to all of the impractical and not-well-thought-out "solutions" being offered. Constructive critism is one thing, but comments such as "the AGA needs a person/people in charge who are true leaders and vision to accomplish what is needed" do not qualify. Even if the comment were true, there is nothing here that is plausibly a solution or in any way a constructive criticsm.

My apologies to single out this particular comment. I don't mean to imply this "criticism" was unique in its unhelpfulness.

My flippant/sarcastic suggestion was inappropriate. What I should have said perhaps more directly, was that many of the comments being made were unhelpful, and that one way for the criticizer to better formulate their comments into a helpful critiscm would be to have some experience in a group and/or board and/or volunteer setting. Such experience would go a long way toward knowing how to formulate a workable approach to solving problems.

I should have more carefully written my thoughts.

As an example: See this post on evaluating a solution to the communication problem.. It's a plan with distinct steps, solution evaluation, summary generation, AGA "staff" touch point, board touch points, and cost analysis.

bearzbear · **#97**

There is a big difference between the submission of a plan and a discussion of general ideas and issues.

I think the first step is not the submission of plans, but gaining the general understanding that there is a problem, and then what the nature of the problem truly is.

WRT these two points, in the past there has been a general denial either in the form of outright denial or deflection via a number of tactical means. It's impossible to discuss the nature of the problem(s) if there is no willingness to even consider that one exists.

Looks like this has changed now, at least to a substantial degree compared to the way things were in the past. Personally, I am hopeful and encouraged. We'll see what happens next.

As far as working in a volunteer setting, I agree it can be a very difficult thing to cause change, especially when there is an entrenched orthodoxy.

I'd like to apologize for the tone (not most of the content) of my posts so far. However, sometimes (not always) it is necessary to "light a fire" to get things in motion...

_-_-bearzbear

Joaz Banbeck · **#98**

Tofu wrote:

I think we've fed this troll enough. Can we lock it?

[admin]
Not yet. I was thinking about it when there was some rudeness. But the worst we have now is vagueness and speciousness. Besides, it is giving DTS a platform to discuss the AGA.

[/admin]

illluck · **#99**

Yes, impressed and surprised how this is turning into a productive discussion.

Kirby · **#100**

pwaldron wrote:

The thread has taken a turn towards sniping, but I think the original message had some points. Someone has declined to renew their AGA membership because they didn't feel like it was worth it. He identified three items that he received as a member:

.

I agree with this. And in my case, I have never attended congress because of the time commitment and burden on my wife. Plus, the ejournal is free without the bonus content (eg. sgfs). This leaves only one reason for me to sign up for the aga: tournaments. And in my case, the city I live in now is kind of far from anywhere that regularly holds tournaments. So I also didn't renew this year. I renewed last year, but that was because of the go world promotion :-)

At least I got something for my money in 2011.

I did not renew my AGA membership.

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