Woohoo! This could be a fun debate. I don't have time to respond now, but I will. But first, while I'm analogizing to contract principles, this is by no means a debate within the context of a legal system. Burden of proof has no bearing. And, of course force majeure doesn't apply in most cases--out of the hundreds (thousands?) of games played on KGS each day, I suspect far fewer than 1% are abandoned due to external and unforeseen (or unforeseeable) circumstances beyond one's control.

To be clear, I wasn't trying to set up a straw man, and I do not think Kirby is crazy (I was sincere when I said I respect his position).

Finally, the Restatement might be a better source than Wikipedia .

No punishment aside from constantly creating new accounts?

_________________
Occupy Babel!

This is a bit stubborn--you've talked to such people on these very boards!

_________________
Occupy Babel!

They will still escape and create new accounts even if the system gives you the victory. The benefit to your rank will still be nil.

Even accepting your premise as true, some of this is either interesting or entertaining for some people. If you don't mind me borrowing your admonishment: If you don't like the discussion in this thread, don't read it .

EDIT: I know I sound like a broken record (unless you're too young to know what that means), but I just want to reiterate that I don't see a significant escaper problem, and I play serious ranked games on automatch quite frequently. I just find some of the good-spirited debate fascinating. If it starts becoming personal, I'll duck out.

Well, that argument is of course invincible. However it will probably invite more escapers to KGS which has practically no escaper handling.

Well, escapers have several accounts anyway as Araban has pointed out.


It will benefit as the escaper is kept from unrightfully boosting up his rank and you get a correctly handicapped game.

I think a poll would be a good idea.
How many of us here think that their rank is being kept down for prolonged periods of time by escapers?

And I mean - not like you are on the border of rank advance and somebody escaped and you need to play one more game to advance and you are peeved... Real rank issues, like you cannot advance to 1d for 3 months because people keep escaping on you.

Would be interesting, no?

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

To me, the question is not if your rank is being severely kept down by escapers. In my case, the answer to that is, "no".

What I am rather arguing is that the system would be better if we eliminate escapers. The KGS system still works - I just feel that it would be improved via the methods referenced above.

I am talking about an idealistic system rather than claiming that the current is not usable.

_________________
be immersed

Like I say, such people could exist. And having a timeout would still fix their problem.

Now, it's also questionable as to whether such users should play games with fast settings online, but that's a different argument.

_________________
be immersed

However, you're not eliminating escapers at all. You're just assigning them losses.

To me, the definition of an escaper is somebody who leaves the game, rather than to resign, in a hopeless position. So assigning them losses would be the prudent thing to do.

Somebody who leaves the game for any other reason is (generally) not an escaper in my book.

This is of course a completely arbitrary definition and perhaps another one is more common, but I would see little use for that term otherwise.

Escapers escape to avoid losses that they would have suffered anyway. Assigning losses to escapers just means that escaping is another way to say "I resign". So the phenomenon of escaping would be eliminated.

If they get losses, they are no longer "escapers". In a tournament, if you get up and leave, you lose the game, too.

Actually, if kgs did it exactly like a tournament and the clock kept running, I'd prefer that, too. The 5 minute deal just helps people with bad connections.

Either way, escapers as we know them today are indeed eliminated. We may have some "loss by quitting the game", but this exists in real life tournament play.

So I have to disagree: escapers are eliminated with such a system.

_________________
be immersed

"Well, like I said, smart people could exist in America."

It's a bit insulting and uncooperative, right?

But as I'm writing this, a little voice is telling me that I'm also really bad about unnecessarily hedging my bets in writing. So I can't be too annoyed. Still, please just go ahead and drop the "could". Such people do exist. You've talked to them.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Well, I do not think it is relevant to the current argument, because the timeout solution provides assistance to escapers.

I will believe you that people with slow enough connection speeds to lose a game exist, but I am surprised, as I have no problems at all when I am in my rural hometown using my parents' cell phone internet connection.

Still, this is not really relevant to the argument, because both the current kgs solution and the timeout solution provide a grace period for such connections.

_________________
be immersed

I didn't think there was an escaper problem on KGS until I recently asked my friend who just returned from studying Go abroad a deal stronger.

I've looked at his game list and asked him about it. He told me that roughly 1 out of 20 games ends with an escape. I guess he is one of the unlucky ones. It affects me too as an observer.

_________________
Ko is the best solution.
With Ko, I can keep eating and drinking until I am full.

Visit >>>Koosh's Study Journal<<<

So basically, what you are arguing about is this:
Lets go into all the trouble of changing the system, writing new specs, re-training the admins, re-training the users, maybe making other folks unhappy, and so on - because theoretically it will be 'more perfect' TO YOU, while at the same time YOU YOURSELF admit that practical difference will be next to none.

I am glad we made this clear.
Now - do you think it is worth to make so much fuss and go to so much trouble just to satisfy your sense of theoretical perfection without much practical benefit?

If you are after a simple admission that the KGS system is not perfect - here it is: KGS system is not perfect!
If you are after the admission that KGS system could be better - here it is: KGS system could be better.
It seems we both agree that practically it would not make much difference.
Can we drop it now? I know you are smart.

So, personally, here is what I think is actually happening:
You are angry when people escape. You cannot find it within yourself to deal with it emotionally.
So you try to force the system to deal with it for you. Right? Honestly...

And all this talk about ratings and systems and whatnot - its just an excuse and smoke screen. No offense - but this is how you come through.
Just my opinion...

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Let me just say that I completely agree with you Kirby, but I don't want to expend the effort to argue for something that I don't feel will be changed and I am not overly passionate about. That said, I'm glad people like you are pressing the issue, as the system can be done a lot better than it is now and I would like to see it changed.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

When someone escapes i can handle this. But somedays ago i offered an escaper two times an continutation of an unfinshed game while this player just only started new games and didn't respond to me.
I tried to be polite but this was just frustrating. Such things happen when someone is stupid like me.
So what is the consequence?
I stay calm, but in future i will not ask for a continuation any more. It's may be more politly but in most cases just a waste of my time.
So for me it breaksdown to the question:
It is necessary that everyone who tries to follow the go-etiquette needs to make such a an experience like i did?
Personally i would prefer a clear, straightforward policy that reflects the usual behaviour. (Yet, in my experience not one "not-finisher" has asked me for a continutation)
When i would just worry about my ranking a better escaping policy would not change very much. But that is not my point. It doesn't always a matter of rank, it is also a matter of fun: When my opponent escapes, i can happy, i have won. True. But very often i have the feeling that i am alone with an unfinshed game which is not definetly decided. And that is NOT fun. Not in IMHO.
So why KGS has the "~"-mark but nothing for escapers? I am sure it would enhance my "KGS-fun-factor" when i would have the possibility to refuse a game with an escaper. (The ignore-list is only useful when i have identified an escaper by myself.)

...which they rightfully deserve for using the escape button instead of the resign button.

This is just a question of problem magnitude. The current system taken to the extremes, no one would have obligation to finish any started game with clear conscience*. No games finished means no one would have ranking. No one having ranking means no one could find opponents. How would actions that undermine the whole system not be either cheating or problem in design?



*according to Javaness2 who, in his own words, hasn't cared about games for the past 5 years