I got banned for the comment "handicap stones are for women anyway" for the reason "no sexism on KGS." I would like to know who banned me and for how long I am banned. This basic info should at least be provided along with the "reason" for the ban.

I 100% agree - this info *should* be provided. At least - what for and for how long, so there is no misunderstanding.

On a related issue: what made you say something so incredibly dumb? Though that was 'funny'? Just curious...

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

I don't think there is any reason to give this information. If you believe that handicap stones are for women, then you can contact the admin mailbox to explain why.

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North Lecale

Explain why, please.


This is really pathetic.

Let me get this straight:
You don't believe there is any reason to tell a person what he is banned for and for how long?
Or you believe there is no reason to tell people that handicaps are just for women?

Its not really clear from your post.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Bantari, I believe there is no reason that you immediately need to know who banned you and for how long. That is current KGS policy, and those who have been banned are unlikely to circumvent that by asking here in the forum. If your ban is incorrect, there is always a point of contact available to help resolve the situation.

Let me illustrate one reason why. Yesterday a player on KGS abused another during a game with something along the lines of "F@&é you ké"' I am going to knife your jçà ass and r"'( your mother". When dealing with such users, admins should not have to fear that they are going to be a target of abuse because of enforcing the Terms of Service: It is an extreme example, but it does apply across the board.

If somebody did something wrong, they get punished. Sorry, but they do not need to know how long that will last - in fact some decisions are changed, so the information given in the primary instance would then be misleading. They do not need to know who punished them. They just need to know that they have broken a rule, an the ban message should allow them to understand what they did wrong.

Obviously there are other opinions on that, and feel free to debate those.

PS: There was also no need to inform people that handicap stones are for women, for one thing, they are not exclusively for women.

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North Lecale

Ok, I see your points. Here are mine:

• I don't think admins getting abused should be an issue in either case - although I am also iffy on giving out the info as to "who" banned you. In any case, if the admin acted correctly, and somebody tries to harass them publicly for that - this person just makes a donkey of himself, and the admin is in the clear. So no problem.

• Theoretically, I agree with your notion that the banee 'does not need to know' for how long he is banned. We don't really *need* any of that, including playing Go in general or on KGS in particular. In practice - the punishment is the ban, yes? Keeping the user in the dark, possibly making him keep trying every 15 min if he is already un-banned is unusual, I think, and should not be part of the punishment. Or, if it is intended this way, to twist the knife a little more, why not put it in writing somewhere, so it is all clear and in the open?

• I see your point about the duration of the ban changing as the issue gets re-evaluated, and fully agree and support it. But this can be easily solved by adjusting the popup saying 'you are banned for blah blah, time remaining, blah blah' each time you try to log in. I see no reason not to implement that (other than the trivial 'it does not need to be implemented' you give.)

• In general, in my experience, punishment works the best and generates the least controversy when it is clear and straightforward. Keeping the punished person in the dark as to the aspects of the punishment (such as for what or how long and what exactly *is* the punishment) only leads to trouble and resentment in the long run. I see nothing to gain by keeping the time secret and I cannot think of any scenario when this should be beneficial for the server or for anybody else.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Not saying how long a ban for is poor form. I can agree with withholding names.

I know several internet moderators who have gotten death threats, a few openly female ones detailed rape threats usually with as much personal information as possible thrown in to be extra creepy. Several including myself getting detailed threats of physical violence and again I and others have had to deal with abuse and more if we used the username anywhere off the site in question. Boidhre is a "new" username because of this kind of thing happening to me regularly.

I can understand why they want to be anonymous. Or why many/most of the KGS admins/mods have other accounts for playing on.

As much of a pain as it is to be banned, I can't agree more regarding not releasing the admin names WRT a particular case. While it seems like KGS is a pretty friendly place, releasing the overseeing admin can only aggravate the situation. What good would it do to know who banned you? At best you'll just know who to blame, at worst (and I'm not directing this toward anyone in particular) that opens the door to admin harassment.

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"It has cost me much, but I have learned... Lemon need not squeeze lemon to survive..!"

I was more curious as to why that deserved a ban in the first place. I would never have banned anyone for it when I was a KGS senior admin.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Who did the ban should be very easily known to other admins. It may not be best in all cases to disclose to the user that got banned, but admin actions should be easily known by other admins.

Admins are people and don't always make good decisions, so there should be *some* form of accountability.

I'd bet admins already can see who banned who. I'd doubt that it's ever used to keep admins accountable since admins tend to agree with one another, but it's good if actions aren't anonymous to everybody.

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be immersed

You banned people for much less, dude.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Alright, as I said - I was iffy about the 'who' of banning. Pretty sure now it is best to keep secret, at least from the public. Anyways, aren't the admins already protected by the anonymity of KGS nicks?

However - my main point was about the duration. Nobody talking about that? What are the reasons for this being secret?

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

I'm not sure how A got to B here. I perceived one to be an off-hand comment/attempt at humour in a hyper PC environment and the other to describe people with serious psych issues and perhaps a weak line of defense protecting volunteer admins. To the latter, I believe there is a priority to deal with some deep mental issues (for the person uttering typing such messages) before we come to the table on the issue of humorous or not. I do not believe it to be fair to equate the two.

As for the length of the ban? Why customize or vary it. Standardize it, ie. 1 week. 3 strikes your out. I do support the anonymity of the offense and the player handle. To sensationalize it is to promote it. You do something stupid, your banned. No spectacle, no need to follow up with questions.

Flame on.

I think for the majority of admins there is virtually no anonymity. They are all active members of the go community which is, in the grand scheme of things, really quite small (Example - I don't think anyone has trouble figuring out what edlee's name is). Admittedly some do choose to have their admin identity separate from their "go community" identity, but that group is a minority.

Agree. Still, its the personal choice they make. They certainly do not have to bind their admin nicks to their real-life identity, nor to their 'playing' nick. In either case - this is a moot point since I have already agreed that it is better not to disclose who is it that did the banning.

So, how about the ban duration disclosure? Any comments? Agree, disagree, and why?

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

They're not equated, and I don't think for a second that the average ban from KGS would be responded to with threats or whatever never mind that mw42 would be capable of it. Really, reread what I said, I'm talking about the fringe cases being problematic enough to merit anonymity in general, especially since it really doesn't matter who banned me, it only matters if I complain and the ban was out of order that the senior admins or wms can see who gave it out and correct the ban and have a word with the admin in question.

This requires trust that the latter happens of course, which may me lacking in some people.

I see no reason to publicly inform of every ban with only "Motive" and the "Details of the ban" including duration and effects of the ban (like no talking, no playing or simply no entering the server).

I also see no reason to publish less information than that.

Obviously, if all bans have the same effects (forbidden entrance) or the same duration, I'd see no need to specify it every time.


About the identification of the admin. I really don't see the point of it, as long as a system to appeal is in place. Either the ban is just or it isn't; the admin is only the fist person who judged it. If the banned doesn't consider the ban to be just he can appeal. There's is no advantage in knowing the original admin.

Exactly, by banning people for much less, they never would have gotten to that.

But I agree with others that it's reasonable to give out the duration of the ban, even if it's just "For the foreseeable future."

From a pragmatic point of view, it just cuts down on the amount of emailing/interaction the admins have to do with each offender. I think this is a far better outcome than a bit of extra salt in the wound.

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