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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #81 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:20 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
There are also more reasons for multiple accounts than concern about rank. I know people with "anti-social" accounts for when they just want to play and not chat to anyone (the lack of a Do Not Disturb tag for KGS being a core reason for this), people with "drunk" accounts for when they can't stop themselves from playing after a few drinks (how well this works seems to vary ;)) and so on. Both of these are accounts made about rank concerns but not really because of KGS's ranking system.


I think separating blitz and non-blitz accounts is also relatively common.


Well, it's fairly common for chess servers to separate your ratings according to standard/blitz/bullet or whatever on the one account. Why go servers don't do this is odd to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #82 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Boidhre wrote:
skydyr wrote:
Boidhre wrote:
There are also more reasons for multiple accounts than concern about rank. I know people with "anti-social" accounts for when they just want to play and not chat to anyone (the lack of a Do Not Disturb tag for KGS being a core reason for this), people with "drunk" accounts for when they can't stop themselves from playing after a few drinks (how well this works seems to vary ;)) and so on. Both of these are accounts made about rank concerns but not really because of KGS's ranking system.


I think separating blitz and non-blitz accounts is also relatively common.


Well, it's fairly common for chess servers to separate your ratings according to standard/blitz/bullet or whatever on the one account. Why go servers don't do this is odd to me.


I don't know about the chess part, but I wholely agree on the rankings. Rankings should only apply when people are playing the same game, or there is some requirement that each individual plays both blitz and non-blitz, because ultimately the rankings will assume there are players that are good at both, which is non-sense. It is also annoying on Tygem that you have to negotiate the time in auto-match mode.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #83 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:28 pm 
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mitsun wrote:
This has more to do with Tygem than KGS, but to inject a little data into the conversation about volatility of ratings, I ran a short simulation with the following assumptions:
    win 50% against equally ranked opponent
    win (55,60,65,70)% against opponent with rank-1
    win (60,70,80,90)% against opponent with rank-2
    promote/demote after winning 70%/30% of previous 20 games
    reset win rate counter after promotion or demotion


As an aside none of these would hold their rank as a mid-high dan in the EGF system, you would be expected to do better than 70% against rank-1 and against rank-2 80% would be far too low. The EGF system expects more consistent win rates the stronger you are because the assumption is that players play more consistently. 70% against rank-1 is 18-20k territory. Dan level would be closer to 75% by comparison. (For example a 5d would expect to win less than 7% of the time against someone on paper 200 GoR higher where 100 GoR is approximately 1 stone in strength)

Not that the above numbers are wrong, just that the difference is interesting.

Edit: I should point out what rank-1 means in my numbers here. It is not a 2d vs a 1d it is two players whose GoR difference is 100. This is important as 4d facing a 2d could mean a GoR difference between 101 and 399 depending on how strong either of them are for their rank (rank like 1d doesn't mean that much there is a rather large gap between a very strong and very weak 1d in the EGF system never mind that some player's declared rank and their GoR say rather different things).

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #84 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:16 am 
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SmoothOper wrote:

I don't know about the chess part, but I wholely agree on the rankings. Rankings should only apply when people are playing the same game, or there is some requirement that each individual plays both blitz and non-blitz, because ultimately the rankings will assume there are players that are good at both, which is non-sense. It is also annoying on Tygem that you have to negotiate the time in auto-match mode.


Forgive the slight hijack, but one thing about KGS that is becoming more and more annoying to me the more I have to endure it (and is forcing me to tygem) is that utter randomness of the time systems in the games on offer. I can get used to a few basics, such as the ones in automatch, but the offered games are insane. Sometimes 1 byoyomi, sometimes, 3, sometimes, 5, sometimes 100. Sometimes 8 seconds, sometimes 10 seconds, sometimes 20 seconds, sometimes 22 seconds. It's ludicrous, and I have to play the clock as well as my opponent. It's a small thing, I know, and I suppose it has it's place, but it's abuse is really starting to affect my enjoyment of the system.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #85 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:30 am 
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Unless I'm playing someone I know, I always use automatch. That way I don't need to check times, how someone has the handicap set up, people changing rulesets, etc... All I need to check is did I get a "fast" game or "medium" game.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #86 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:44 pm 
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oren wrote:
Unless I'm playing someone I know, I always use automatch. That way I don't need to check times, how someone has the handicap set up, people changing rulesets, etc... All I need to check is did I get a "fast" game or "medium" game.
Making the time settings be "Blitz/Fast/Medium/Custom" in the open games window and presenting things the same way in the list of open games might be a nice change.

I wonder if that's inconsistent with wishing that KGS would implement Fischer time.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #87 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:47 pm 
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oren wrote:
Unless I'm playing someone I know, I always use automatch. That way I don't need to check times, how someone has the handicap set up, people changing rulesets, etc... All I need to check is did I get a "fast" game or "medium" game.


Automatch is cool, but quite often I can't get a game on automatch, so have to resort to the open challenges.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #88 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:41 am 
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I agree with Kirby's thoughts about the volatility of the ranking system. I feel deterred from playing many games with one account because the rank will feel "stuck", even if it is just in my head.

I feel a possible solution would be to limit the number of games that affect the rank. For example only the past 30 games count towards your ratings. This would add some volatility to ranking for those players who play many games. I am not sure how this how this would affect convergence. I am interested on others thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #89 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:05 am 
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With just 30 games, ranks will be volatile and therefore quite inaccurate (if you have an account you use infrequently, you can have probably observed this).

That's not a tweak, it's just giving up on the system, in favor something much more like Tygem.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #90 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:16 am 
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On the opposite end, I just played on Pandanet IGS yesterday for a change of pace. I have a really old account and decided to check how many games it would take to 1d. My account is at 8k+ right now. Even if I win every game in a row, it would still take me 100 games to get the account to 1d.


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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #91 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:23 pm 
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On virtue of the IGS/Tygem style system is that it is easier to figure out how to throw in little hacks for those cases. Winning 19 of 20 games could put you in a special accelerated ranking change category that lets you rank up quickly.

In contrast for a KGS system, you can just change things arbitrarily, or you might corrupt the system's rating integrity. Perhaps there are ways to fix the potential for stuck ranks, but you can't just guess and hope they'll work.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #92 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:40 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
In contrast for a KGS system, you can just change things arbitrarily, or you might corrupt the system's rating integrity. Perhaps there are ways to fix the potential for stuck ranks, but you can't just guess and hope they'll work.



On KGS if you truly feel stuck, the easiest thing is to play games handicapped how you think they should be at your correct rating. Assuming you are correct, your rating should stabilize at that level fairly quickly. Unlike the other systems listed it does this with no penalty your opponents who helped you fix your rank.


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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #93 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:52 pm 
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oren wrote:
On the opposite end, I just played on Pandanet IGS yesterday for a change of pace. I have a really old account and decided to check how many games it would take to 1d. My account is at 8k+ right now. Even if I win every game in a row, it would still take me 100 games to get the account to 1d.
One advantage of the IGS rating system is simplicity, as evidenced by your ability to make that calculation. Can you come up with a similar calculation for a KGS rating?

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #94 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:16 pm 
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mitsun wrote:
One advantage of the IGS rating system is simplicity, as evidenced by your ability to make that calculation. Can you come up with a similar calculation for a KGS rating?


Nope, I'm not defending the KGS system either. I think Pandanet may be the heaviest to move though. Tygem or wbaduk, 100 straight wins gets you to the top pretty fast. Also 100 straight wins on KGS on an account you went back to after leaving it stale for a bit would move even quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #95 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:21 pm 
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oren wrote:
mitsun wrote:
One advantage of the IGS rating system is simplicity, as evidenced by your ability to make that calculation. Can you come up with a similar calculation for a KGS rating?


Nope, I'm not defending the KGS system either. I think Pandanet may be the heaviest to move though. Tygem or wbaduk, 100 straight wins gets you to the top pretty fast. Also 100 straight wins on KGS on an account you went back to after leaving it stale for a bit would move even quicker.



No need to leave it stale, especially not if we're discussing a 100 game winning streak. There will be an initial lag with kgs because a player near promotion is expected to have a high winning %, but after that first promotion the confidence in your rating will drop, and you will rapidly continue promoting.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #96 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:23 pm 
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Mef wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
In contrast for a KGS system, you can just change things arbitrarily, or you might corrupt the system's rating integrity. Perhaps there are ways to fix the potential for stuck ranks, but you can't just guess and hope they'll work.



On KGS if you truly feel stuck, the easiest thing is to play games handicapped how you think they should be at your correct rating. Assuming you are correct, your rating should stabilize at that level fairly quickly. Unlike the other systems listed it does this with no penalty your opponents who helped you fix your rank.
Is this necessarily true for small differences (you're one stone below your true rank)? I've never seen someone actually do the math on playing at handicaps other than those indicated by the ratings system.

In any case, my point was about the system itself, not user attempts to maximize their ratings change.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #97 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:14 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
In any case, my point was about the system itself, not user attempts to maximize their ratings change.



My apologies, I think I misunderstood the context your post was meant to be in...If you mean to say that with altered parameters (game half life, rating distribution width, etc) you may easily mess up the system's calibration, that is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #98 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:56 am 
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Mef wrote:
On KGS if you truly feel stuck, the easiest thing is to play games handicapped how you think they should be at your correct rating. Assuming you are correct, your rating should stabilize at that level fairly quickly. Unlike the other systems listed it does this with no penalty your opponents who helped you fix your rank.

Please tell me more about this. I always assumed that in a game with an incorrect handicap, the higher rated player would suffer a more severe rating loss than if he lost at the correct handi.

Is this documented somewhere?

Thanks.

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Post #99 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:55 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
I always assumed that in a game with an incorrect handicap, the higher rated player would suffer a more severe rating loss than if he lost at the correct handi.

I think that's what most people assume (including me till this very thread). Which can make it hard to get even rated games with higher rated players, because they may "fear" losing more.

It certainly sounds logical that if a solid 1d loses against a solid 13k, then it will have a greater negative impact on the 1d's rating than losing against another solid 1d would.

But I have no idea how the KGS rating math works.

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 Post subject: Re: Does KGS rank system encourage users to make new account
Post #100 Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:25 am 
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I think what mef means is that if the 13k plays a bunch of games as a 1 dan, and wins a lot of them, the system will retroactively treat those games as a 1 dan beating another 1 dan.

That is, the effect of a game on your current rank is based on the system's current estimate of what the strength of the opponent was (at the time of the game). The effect on your rank is not based on the fact that when the game happened, it had previously estimated that player's strength as a 13k.

That's why the system is prone to ratings drift: if you beat someone and the system changes what it thought their strength was, you get a retroactive strength change.

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